Jab Nerfed Again :D

[Luqt]

I'm curious about this because it's not something I've seen a whole lot of math or discussion on (most Uplift compared to targets analyses were between Chi Burst and Uplift, not Jab and SCK). Is this assuming that SCK isn't overhealing, is Serpent's Zeal up in the Jab case, does this take into account less frequent Mana Tea consumption due to slower Chi gen, is this just straight HPS or does this take into account HPM? I'm just not sure what exactly "will be superior", and "Jab rotation" entail. If you did the math yourself somewhere or found someone else's work I'd love to take a look at it because I figure it would take me several hours to construct all of the different scenarios, stats, and just the pure math behind that.

It's a very specific case (Garalon's consistent AoE damage), which I happened to have already confronted when thinking, when does jabbing to uplift actually yield more HPS than using an effective SCK rotation?

I used Valen's calculator (god send) since it takes into account SZ healing, TP being active, raid buffs and actual heal when including mastery and crit. Then it's just a case of finding the number of uplift targets. I'll just include some values:

Healing done by:

SCK (10 players healed, roughly comprises the ranged dpsers not on pheromone duty and healers) - 254,912
Jab - 37,428
Uplift (13 targets, yes it looks like I was wrong when I looked at this back then lol) - 630885

SCK rotation: (254,912*2 + 630885)/4.86 = 234,713.8 HPS
Jab rotation: (37,428*2 + 630885)/3 = 235247 HPS

And it's that simple. If you wanted to do the whole thing by yourself you'd have to be multiplying your crit values and mastery scalars with your mastery rating and etc... just use that calculator where everything's done for you :P

For other users, this basically means that if you have 12 or less ReM on your raid, and your SCK will be 100% effective then it should be higher HPS than jabbing to get a 12 player count uplift.

[Felade]

It's a very specific case (Garalon's consistent AoE damage), which I happened to have already confronted when thinking, when does jabbing to uplift actually yield more HPS than using an effective SCK rotation?

I used Valen's calculator (god send) since it takes into account SZ healing, TP being active, raid buffs and actual heal when including mastery and crit. Then it's just a case of finding the number of uplift targets. I'll just include some values:

Healing done by:

SCK (10 players healed, roughly comprises the ranged dpsers not on pheromone duty and healers) - 254,912
Jab - 37,428
Uplift (13 targets, yes it looks like I was wrong when I looked at this back then lol) - 630885

SCK rotation: (254,912*2 + 630885)/4.86 = 234,713.8 HPS
Jab rotation: (37,428*2 + 630885)/3 = 235247 HPS

And it's that simple. If you wanted to do the whole thing by yourself you'd have to be multiplying your crit values and mastery scalars with your mastery rating and etc... just use that calculator where everything's done for you :P

For other users, this basically means that if you have 12 or less ReM on your raid, and your SCK will be 100% effective then it should be higher HPS than jabbing to get a 12 player count uplift.

I envision long tables comparing #of Uplift targets and # of SCK targets :P

[Deleted]

I envision long tables comparing #of Uplift targets and # of SCK targets :P

SCK stops scaling in terms of healing done above 6 targets.

[Totaltotemic]

It's a very specific case (Garalon's consistent AoE damage), which I happened to have already confronted when thinking, when does jabbing to uplift actually yield more HPS than using an effective SCK rotation?

I used Valen's calculator (god send) since it takes into account SZ healing, TP being active, raid buffs and actual heal when including mastery and crit. Then it's just a case of finding the number of uplift targets. I'll just include some values:

Healing done by:

SCK (10 players healed, roughly comprises the ranged dpsers not on pheromone duty and healers) - 254,912
Jab - 37,428
Uplift (13 targets, yes it looks like I was wrong when I looked at this back then lol) - 630885

SCK rotation: (254,912*2 + 630885)/4.86 = 234,713.8 HPS
Jab rotation: (37,428*2 + 630885)/3 = 235247 HPS

And it's that simple. If you wanted to do the whole thing by yourself you'd have to be multiplying your crit values and mastery scalars with your mastery rating and etc... just use that calculator where everything's done for you :P

For other users, this basically means that if you have 12 or less ReM on your raid, and your SCK will be 100% effective then it should be higher HPS than jabbing to get a 12 player count uplift.

That makes sense, obviously the HPM of using SCK is a lot lower, but when I gear for 13 minute long fights I tend to end ones like Garalon at 50% mana, so I could probably spam more SCK.

[Luqt]

That makes sense, obviously the HPM of using SCK is a lot lower, but when I gear for 13 minute long fights I tend to end ones like Garalon at 50% mana, so I could probably spam more SCK.

Maybe, but it's completely theoretical and in practice what you'll likely find is that healing on garalon for instance will have moments where healing will need to be more intense (coincides with Crushes without spirit shells, STRANGELY ENOUGH ) and your style of play of jabbing to uplift specific players needing more healing (usually melee) and banking chi seems to fit this profile better. Nice log on Garalon by the way.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 02:51 AM ----------

Not weak on Empress, but definitely not as good as a Priest, Shaman, or Paladin are. As Affiniti's been saying, Uplift is our only multi-target but non-AoE heal (heal multiple targets that are not stacked up) and it's already based on randomness. Sometimes it'll jump to the people in the dissonance field, sometimes it'll jump to melee that take almost no damage. That's not quite as good as a Prayer of Healing or truly smart heals like Wild Growth (although Druid healing is so low that it's bad from a purely mathematical standpoing), Chain Heal, Light of Dawn, or hots that you get to actually select who they go on like Riptide. Thankfully, we're allowed to spam Uplift and make do by simply throwing lots of them out via Jab.

Forgot to reply to this, have you considered removing the ReM glyph for this encounter? It gives you some more control over the general location of your ReM targets, and since you correctly say that ranged dpsers generally drop lower with the dissonance fields it would technically serve its purpose.

[Tatuin]

It's a very specific case (Garalon's consistent AoE damage), which I happened to have already confronted when thinking, when does jabbing to uplift actually yield more HPS than using an effective SCK rotation?

I used Valen's calculator (god send) since it takes into account SZ healing, TP being active, raid buffs and actual heal when including mastery and crit. Then it's just a case of finding the number of uplift targets. I'll just include some values:

Healing done by:

SCK (10 players healed, roughly comprises the ranged dpsers not on pheromone duty and healers) - 254,912
Jab - 37,428
Uplift (13 targets, yes it looks like I was wrong when I looked at this back then lol) - 630885

SCK rotation: (254,912*2 + 630885)/4.86 = 234,713.8 HPS
Jab rotation: (37,428*2 + 630885)/3 = 235247 HPS

And it's that simple. If you wanted to do the whole thing by yourself you'd have to be multiplying your crit values and mastery scalars with your mastery rating and etc... just use that calculator where everything's done for you :P

For other users, this basically means that if you have 12 or less ReM on your raid, and your SCK will be 100% effective then it should be higher HPS than jabbing to get a 12 player count uplift.

Thats in a 25man raids. in 10mans Uplift always beat SCK for garalon since you wont have that many ppl stacked. But you can have all players target by ReM aloto f times

[Totaltotemic]

Forgot to reply to this, have you considered removing the ReM glyph for this encounter? It gives you some more control over the general location of your ReM targets, and since you correctly say that ranged dpsers generally drop lower with the dissonance fields it would technically serve its purpose.

I tried that, but it wasn't much of an improvement and rather destroyed my ability to use ReM in the add phase. In the end I just relegated myself to healing the melee, and only the melee, so that our 4 priests would just never use PoH on groups 1 or 2 because I would take care of them sufficiently.

[Tatuin]

Well wiht the mana cost of Jab on ptr atm (13.5k) its not to bad.

But what i dont understand is if the 22% mana increse to Jab is from the 13.5k mana cost cuz that would work out to be 16,4k mana for 1 Jab. But i seen someone mention it would cost 19k mana here in this thread or have i read wrong?

16.4k mana for 1 Jab is bad its to much. But i could see it work wiht the 2% mana return from TP.

But what i would rather see is something we could od more wiht our statue. Now it just stands there and giving out eminance healing or Soothing Mist beam. Wiht the mana cost away from it blizz should do it more usefull for us.

[Felade]

But what i would rather see is something we could od more wiht our statue. Now it just stands there and giving out eminance healing or Soothing Mist beam. Wiht the mana cost away from it blizz should do it more usefull for us.

In my opinion, the free cost was much needed. It lets us use our statue much more strategically. I don't think we want the actual statue to do much more than what it actually does or it could become overpowered.

[Astraios]

on garalon you should only be killing 2 legs, meaning a large portion of the time the majority of your DPS should be stacking, so you should have 6-7 targets stacked a large portion of the time.

The times where SCK>jab is pretty much whenever the raid is universally not topped, which normally coincides (in my experience) right before crushes. I line my TFT's up with crushes and bank chi for tft/chi brew or tft/4chi so by the time my chi is spent after crushes we're normally topped (or is prime territory for revivaling). But right before crushes the raid damage is consistently the highest, so if there's no spirit shell its the best time to use SCK. And I sometimes just dump mana with SCK because...why not. This happens near the end of many fights as well (during burn phases/other healers low on mana).

Also totaltotemic what talent were you using on your garalon kill, I couldn't find anything for chi brew/power strikes but the mana returns on tea line up with normal mana pool not with having ascension.

[Totaltotemic]

on garalon you should only be killing 2 legs, meaning a large portion of the time the majority of your DPS should be stacking, so you should have 6-7 targets stacked a large portion of the time.

The times where SCK>jab is pretty much whenever the raid is universally not topped, which normally coincides (in my experience) right before crushes. I line my TFT's up with crushes and bank chi for tft/chi brew or tft/4chi so by the time my chi is spent after crushes we're normally topped (or is prime territory for revivaling). But right before crushes the raid damage is consistently the highest, so if there's no spirit shell its the best time to use SCK. And I sometimes just dump mana with SCK because...why not. This happens near the end of many fights as well (during burn phases/other healers low on mana).

Also totaltotemic what talent were you using on your garalon kill, I couldn't find anything for chi brew/power strikes but the mana returns on tea line up with normal mana pool not with having ascension.

Pretty sure we've covered that SCK is more HPS but less HPM, I don't think anyone in the last two pages has disagreed with that, nor is it something that this thread was even about, it was just an off-hand comment I made that's not all that important.

I can 5 heal Garalon and have the 11th most healing done for that fight since the massive 5.1 nerfs, I'm not really looking for people to crawl through my logs because the chances that you're doing something that works better than what I'm doing are pretty low. I know that healing ranks don't matter at all, but the point I'm trying to make is that my guild's healing team is by far the best part of our raid and we don't hardly ever wipe due to healing simply being insufficient, so I'm not really looking to improve on this tier's specific fights at the moment.

Also, I was using Ascension, I don't switch it off for anything other than Empress because it's simply much easier to deal with and the actual throughput/mp5 difference between Ascension and Chi Brew is insignificantly low, as I've pointed out here before.

[Courierrawr]

Pretty sure we've covered that SCK is more HPS but less HPM, I don't think anyone in the last two pages has disagreed with that, nor is it something that this thread was even about, it was just an off-hand comment I made that's not all that important.

I can 5 heal Garalon and have the 11th most healing done for that fight since the massive 5.1 nerfs, I'm not really looking for people to crawl through my logs because the chances that you're doing something that works better than what I'm doing are pretty low. I know that healing ranks don't matter at all, but the point I'm trying to make is that my guild's healing team is by far the best part of our raid and we don't hardly ever wipe due to healing simply being insufficient, so I'm not really looking to improve on this tier's specific fights at the moment.

Also, I was using Ascension, I don't switch it off for anything other than Empress because it's simply much easier to deal with and the actual throughput/mp5 difference between Ascension and Chi Brew is insignificantly low, as I've pointed out here before.

Power Strikes > Ascension
The extra chi is worth a lot more than the extra mana.

11th most healing done with 5 healers? Are you even trying dude? The 5.1 nerfs weren't that bad, even after all the nerfs we've received Garalon is still easily one of our best fights.

[apepi]

MW damage is still pretty high after the nerf. I can see mw _ dps being op in 2's....but what isn't op in 2's?

[Totaltotemic]

Power Strikes > Ascension
The extra chi is worth a lot more than the extra mana.

Really? In the exact same thread where I just got done with a tirade about not posting things as facts with no evidence whatsoever? Please, stop, I've had to go over that far too many times in this exact forum, but this was my most detailed coverage of it. It's a comparison with Chi Brew, but Power Strikes is rarely, if ever as useful as Chi Brew is unless you use the CD on it within 1 or 2 seconds of it being up without fail. Your definition of "a lot" isn't even a 10% difference between the talents.

And it was 11th, among monks, with dates after the 5.1 nerfs (which amounted to a near-40% nerf on that specific fight between mana increases and throughput decreases). My point was that there are very few Mistweavers in the world that I would be willing to take suggestions on their word alone, and almost none of them even look at this forum, let alone post here.

This has reminded me though that with the Jab nerfs, Chi changes, and Tiger Palm's mana restore, I'll have to do the math all over again on CB vs Ascension... fun times.

[Deleted]

Just lets hope the 2% mana return on TP is real and not some sort of dream they talked about

Because ATM, with the jab increased cost BUT the 1% mana return on TP, mana managment is JUST IMPOSSIBLE on ptr

We need lots of changes ( chi generation on Soothing, news chi dumper at distance, 40 yds range on eminence) but let's already see if they actually respect what GC talked about a few days ago

[Deleted]

I'm skeptical, you saw their answer to our mastery being potentially one of the worst in the game.

[Tatuin]

I'm skeptical, you saw their answer to our mastery being potentially one of the worst in the game.

That i have missed, where did you see that?

[Deleted]

That i have missed, where did you see that?

Mastery bubbles bursting to a person within a huge 6 yard radius for half the healing.

[Tatuin]

Mastery bubbles bursting to a person within a huge 6 yard radius for half the healing.

Ah that. well i wouldnt say 6y are that big in the end. And since the bubbles always spawn near a ally not on them. And alot of fights now oyu move around all the time so i still can see alot of the healing not been used from it.

imo our mastery should increae healing done via eminance (statue) and the healing done by the soothing mist from statue. Would make it good for both mist/fistweavng.

[Totaltotemic]

Just lets hope the 2% mana return on TP is real and not some sort of dream they talked about

Because ATM, with the jab increased cost BUT the 1% mana return on TP, mana managment is JUST IMPOSSIBLE on ptr

We need lots of changes ( chi generation on Soothing, news chi dumper at distance, 40 yds range on eminence) but let's already see if they actually respect what GC talked about a few days ago

Yeah, I'm still confused because there is still no new PTR build with the 3-4 different changes GC posted about and he hasn't said anything further on the matter (preferring to spend his time on soothing the worries of a spec that's been OP on and off for 5 years). Supposedly these changes are in some internal build, but we can't really give any kind of meaningful feedback except speculation and theorycrafting when they're not on the actual PTR, and we've only got 2 weeks left.