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  1. #81
    I wonder if Renataki is able to keep 100% of the 10 stacks by keep proccing over and over again

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatao View Post
    I wonder if Renataki is able to keep 100% of the 10 stacks by keep proccing over and over again
    Real PPM doesn't work that way. Sure you can get 2 back to back procs, but with the Real PPM the trinket has I don't seeing it having that much uptime.

    Renataki's Soul Charm – 0.56 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD.

    .56 Real PPM means that on average you will see a proc every 2 minutes and 7.2 seconds (before haste). The 22 second ICD is there only to make it so that you don't stack procs.

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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Real PPM doesn't work that way. Sure you can get 2 back to back procs, but with the Real PPM the trinket has I don't seeing it having that much uptime.

    Renataki's Soul Charm – 0.56 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD.

    .56 Real PPM means that on average you will see a proc every 2 minutes and 7.2 seconds (before haste). The 22 second ICD is there only to make it so that you don't stack procs.
    I think Renataki doesn't stack from multiple procs. ICD just prevents overwriting stacked first proc with new proc, so you couldn't lose that stacked agi (proc1 - agi - 2xagi - 3xagi - proc2 - agi - 2xagi - 3xagi ...)
    Last edited by osa; 2013-02-18 at 06:26 AM.

  4. #84
    i still wonder what will be best... i know i want the bloodlust trinket, thats a given... but the other one is between juju and the soul charm i think

  5. #85
    Rune of Re-Origination changes. If this happens to change anything.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...61?page=22#431

    We're going to make some changes to this trinket based on testing and feedback. Our goal was to make it decent if you didn't game it at all but offer some opportunities for enhanced benefits if you did. We're going to try to meet that goal better with these changes:

    - 10 sec duration (down from 20 sec) but with double the proc rate.
    - Increase your highest secondary stat by 200% of the sum of your two lowest secondary stats. For example: you have 3500 mastery, 5000 crit, 7000 haste. Rune procs, and you get [-3500 mastery, -5000 crit, +17000 haste]. Same logic as before, just double the size of the buff to your highest stat.

  6. #86
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
    Rune of Re-Origination
    We're going to make some changes to this trinket based on testing and feedback. Our goal was to make it decent if you didn't game it at all but offer some opportunities for enhanced benefits if you did. We're going to try to meet that goal better with these changes:

    • 10 sec duration (down from 20 sec) but with double the proc rate.
    • Increase your highest secondary stat by 200% of the sum of your two lowest secondary stats. For example: you have 3500 mastery, 5000 crit, 7000 haste. Rune procs, and you get [-3500 mastery, -5000 crit, +17000 haste]. Same logic as before, just double the size of the buff to your highest stat.
    Now this is more interesting. Still, I wonder about the actual value of that trinket - kinda hard to evaluate. And it will sure be troublesome with Talisman procs having a chance to force you into all-haste Rune proc.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-21 at 09:13 AM.
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  7. #87
    So, how do you link the actual blue post like that?

  8. #88
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    I went to News forum and checked out what happens if I press reply with quote on a news post with blue quote =)
    Apparently the tag is blizzquote instead of usual quote.
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  9. #89
    I wonder how much crit will be worth for us to get it, though. +17000-20000 crit rating doesn't sound bad at all, but then again with no haste it will be hard to say.

  10. #90
    Not only does crit lose value when you lose all your haste and mastery, but every point of crit is less of an increase than the point of crit before. (ie: When you have 10% crit and up grade your gear to reach 11% crit, your attacks crit 10% more often than before the upgrade; whereas if you have 40% crit and gain 1% crit, you only crit 2.5% more often than before).

    Because of this, I feel like the trinket will still be pretty bad. It might have a niche for marks if you can get it to proc haste and spam AI for the duration (haste only loses value between certain breakpoints; large chunks of haste generally tend to be very good for DPS), but we'll see.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Not only does crit lose value when you lose all your haste and mastery, but every point of crit is less of an increase than the point of crit before. (ie: When you have 10% crit and up grade your gear to reach 11% crit, your attacks crit 10% more often than before the upgrade; whereas if you have 40% crit and gain 1% crit, you only crit 2.5% more often than before).

    Because of this, I feel like the trinket will still be pretty bad. It might have a niche for marks if you can get it to proc haste and spam AI for the duration (haste only loses value between certain breakpoints; large chunks of haste generally tend to be very good for DPS), but we'll see.
    I'm not so sure that is a good way to interpret that.

    A 1% increase in crit mean you will crit 1% more often than you did before the increase, regardless of what your crit % was before....

  12. #92
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    In full normal T15 gear I calculated about 8.5k crit, 4.5k haste and 4k mastery when reforging crit > mastery > haste (damn there's a lot of haste on that gear). It means the trinket would give +17k crit, -4.5k haste, -4k mastery. That's 8.5k stats, or if you consider crit to be ~120% of other stats, around ~10k "worth" of crit.

    If instead I somehow reforge to equalize the stats and raize the trinket power, I'll have, let's say, 6k crit 5.5k haste 5.5k mastery. It means proc would give me +22k crit - 5.5k haste -5.5k mastery. That's 11k stats now.

    Talisman of Bloodlust is quite a "danger" here - though it also gives rune extra stats, it has a a chance to raise haste higher than crit.
    This puts BM hunters quite close to crit cap, when the proc is active you'd have 85% pet crit on basic attacks, 80% on KC. And if you add 2 stacks of Talisman while crit is still highest - well, you're at 95-100% crit on pet basic attacks. And that's all on normal, not heroic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Not only does crit lose value when you lose all your haste and mastery, but every point of crit is less of an increase than the point of crit before. (ie: When you have 10% crit and up grade your gear to reach 11% crit, your attacks crit 10% more often than before the upgrade; whereas if you have 40% crit and gain 1% crit, you only crit 2.5% more often than before).

    Because of this, I feel like the trinket will still be pretty bad. It might have a niche for marks if you can get it to proc haste and spam AI for the duration (haste only loses value between certain breakpoints; large chunks of haste generally tend to be very good for DPS), but we'll see.
    1% crit gives same absolute DPS increase whether you're at 40% or 0%. Relative dps increase will be lower, but absolute is same.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremypwnz View Post
    Rune of Re-Origination changes. If this happens to change anything.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...61?page=22#431
    SHouldnt change anything. It will be just as worse. Because Crit will be our main stat almost always unless you want to be risky and reforge for mastery, then we will have 100% crit and 0 hatse and 0 mastery which is really bad to be honest. The only way i can see this trinket being viable is if you were BM, reforge to mastery, so when it procced your pet got a shitload of dmg while sacrificing crits. Not worth it imo

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I'm not so sure that is a good way to interpret that.

    A 1% increase in crit mean you will crit 1% more often than you did before the increase, regardless of what your crit % was before....
    No, 1% crit means your chance to crit goes up by 1%. It also means you will crit X% more often depending on how much crit you currently have, which is what I said.

    Like the other poster who quoted me said, the more crit you have the less of a relative increase it is. Gaining 1% crit at 100k DPS might give you a 1% damage increase, but gaining 1% crit at 200k DPS will give you a .5% damage increase. Haste is the opposite; it will give you the same relative increase no matter what your DPS. If you gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 100k DPS, you will still gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 200k DPS. That's why I said this trinket will likely be more useful for haste builds than crit builds.

    These numbers are theoretical and just used to prove a point. I have no idea how much more damage a % of crit gives you at a certain DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron
    1% crit gives same absolute DPS increase whether you're at 40% or 0%. Relative dps increase will be lower, but absolute is same.
    That's exactly what I was saying.
    Last edited by Neazy; 2013-02-21 at 05:53 PM.

  15. #95
    that trinket being bad for us is a good thing, other classes like it. I know shamans and rogues like it for some reason, so that simply means that there is less in our way to get the ones we want.

    After doing some more testing its looking like next patch will allow us to play what ever spec we want to play for the most part. All of them are simming really close to one another. With that playing which spec you enjoy will allow people to perform better hopefully. I personally like BM right now, so i will try to play that as much as i can with an Sv offspec for when i have to. With that combo it seem Bloodlust trinket and the voodoo juju trinket will be the ones for me.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    That's exactly what I was saying.
    Haste also works same way, giving close to same absolute benefit at any value, and also giving lower relative dps increase at higher value. In fact, it gets even weaker since our cooldowns aren't affected by haste.

    The rough - very rough - formula would be DPS = Base DPS * (1 + Crit * CritValue) * (1 + Mastery * MasteryValue) * (1 + Haste * HasteValue)
    The differences between stats are their relative values.

    Mastery and Crit both increase DPS linearly, the only difference is that Crit has a cap of 100%. Haste is more difficult since it affects our rotation, but it's pretty close to linear too.

    So, the trinket might raise the best stat, but it will also lower it's multiplicative coefficient by lowering other stats. Well, live will tell.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Haste also works same way, giving close to same absolute benefit at any value, and also giving lower relative dps increase at higher value. In fact, it gets even weaker since our cooldowns aren't affected by haste.
    Not true. The value for haste fluctuates greatly depending on whether you can reach a breakpoint or not. If you get enough haste to where you're always dumping with AI, haste becomes worth significantly more per point than when you're dumping with arcane.

    The rough - very rough - formula would be DPS = Base DPS * (1 + Crit * CritValue) * (1 + Mastery * MasteryValue) * (1 + Haste * HasteValue)
    The differences between stats are their relative values.

    Mastery and Crit both increase DPS linearly, the only difference is that Crit has a cap of 100%. Haste is more difficult since it affects our rotation, but it's pretty close to linear too.
    This would only be true if haste never affected the rotation.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Haste also works same way, giving close to same absolute benefit at any value, and also giving lower relative dps increase at higher value. In fact, it gets even weaker since our cooldowns aren't affected by haste.

    The rough - very rough - formula would be DPS = Base DPS * (1 + Crit * CritValue) * (1 + Mastery * MasteryValue) * (1 + Haste * HasteValue)
    The differences between stats are their relative values.

    Mastery and Crit both increase DPS linearly, the only difference is that Crit has a cap of 100%. Haste is more difficult since it affects our rotation, but it's pretty close to linear too.

    So, the trinket might raise the best stat, but it will also lower it's multiplicative coefficient by lowering other stats. Well, live will tell.
    that is wrong. Crit is a terminating stat. Meaning it can only get so high, because it has a hard cap the more you get of i the less "potent" it is. You get a much higher DPS return going from 20-25% crit then going from 50-55% crit. Its the same percentage increase but the return is far less... Because the stat has a cap it will always suffer diminishing returns. Haste is different, while it has certain plateaus that provide greater gains then other points it has no point in which it will stop providing an increase unlike crit.


    The most common misconception people make is they think 1% crit = 1% damage which is false, it only 1% damage at the first 1% crit, after that it goes down but it does not go down at a linear rate. There will be a point in all hunter specs where crit loses it value vs haste and mastery, now if we wills ee that point has yet to be determined. However taking that reorganization trinket could easily make that point possible. The biggest reason that trinket is so bad for hunters is that we scale pretty decently with all the stats, and because we use all the stats losing 2 for the sake of one is not that great for us.


    I just wish people could understand the simple math that 1% crit is not 1% damage all the time. Crit diminishes, the more you have the less powerful it becomes.

    Think of it in terms of some like drinking, first time you start drinking you get drunk pretty fast. However you go out doing it every night and you need more and more to get that same drunk on at the end of the night. That is how crit is, the more you have the more you need to get the same return out of it.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    This would only be true if haste never affected the rotation.
    Having breakpoints actually lowers value of haste outside being close to them, not raises it.
    And, well, within normal values haste doesn't affect rotation much. There's like, 2 breakpoints for each spec, one so low you always have it, and another so high it's not worth aiming for. I think it was ~3k and ~15k haste for MM.
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Having breakpoints actually lowers value of haste outside being close to them, not raises it.
    Now you're not even making sense. Nothing "lowers" the value of haste. Haste is worth what it's worth, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron
    And, well, within normal values haste doesn't affect rotation much. There's like, 2 breakpoints for each spec, one so low you always have it, and another so high it's not worth aiming for. I think it was ~3k and ~15k haste for MM.
    15k haste would be possible with this trinket, which would make it good, which is what I've been saying for 4 posts now.

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