Why is Garrosh so unusually aggressive now?

[Justignoreme]

I'm not sure I follow, the Alliance had no reason to think Garrosh had a manabomb or anything like the Stonetalon bomb since those take so long to make / deploy, sending extra forces there to keep him from taking it was a reasonable decision from what I know, is something else revealed in the book?

SI:7 is the most useless "intelligence" organisation that ever existed is the point. No revelations in the book at all. Dick for aggression from the Alliance as usual. The Horde fleet stationed off shore should've been engaged or at least Garrosh's forces off the coast should've been hammered by the navy and forced to move instead of just sitting there. A whole lot of stupid imo.

[MMOmaxi]

The one thing i don't understand about Garrosh is how he went from executing his general for bombing Stonetalon to bombing Theramore himself.
If his progression is consistent in lore, than which piece of lore should i consult to figure out that particular transition?

[theKarn]

We have young examples like Gorgonna and Warlord Krogg and Zaela too.

With the exception of Zaela the younger generation was heavily influenced by Thrall which is why the vision of what it means to be a true orc has been blurred. I have a feeling that Thrall realized this and tried to rectify it when he let garrosh take the reins. The corruption that Thrall has brought to the Orcish race has seeped too far into the other members of his people.... I don't think anyone can really fix the damage done to them.

On the topic of Zaela... she's a young upstart with crazy ideas!

The one thing i don't understand about Garrosh is how he went from executing his general for bombing Stonetalon to bombing Theramore himself.
If his progression is consistent in lore, than which piece of lore should i consult to figure out that particular transition?

WoWInsider did a really good piece on garrosh a while back. Check it out.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2013/01/27/kn...sh-hellscream/

[The Madgod]

With the exception of Zaela the younger generation was heavily influenced by Thrall which is why the vision of what it means to be a true orc has been blurred. I have a feeling that Thrall realized this and tried to rectify it when he let garrosh take the reins. The corruption that Thrall has brought to the Orcish race has seeped too far into the other members of his people.... I don't think anyone can really fix the damage done to them.

On the topic of Zaela... she's a young upstart with crazy ideas!

No, no it wasn't. That's why Garrosh is so popular. He appealed to the younger, brash generation who were not properly taught the negatives that occurred because of the first and second wars, as well as what happened on Draenor. They were taught that the old ways were good, but not WHY. If anything, they should have been even MORE influenced by Thrall, because their lack of foresight is about to bring about a major change for the Horde, one that will not be entirely beneficial to the orcs. And it will be entirely their own fault.

Also, your grasp of orcish lore is lacking. You should really read Rise of the Horde. Thrall's the savior of the orcs, not the corruptor

[Justignoreme]

The corruption that Thrall has brought to the Orcish race has seeped too far into the other members of his people.... I don't think anyone can really fix the damage done to them.

What corruption and damage? Thrall is the only reason the Orcs are even alive.

Really though, you speak as though the story is independent of writers which are steering in directions that appeal to them, especially when it comes to Orcs. No matter what they do they can always be portrayed positively. Thats the problem with the writing. Fans like you want a brutal, sadistic Horde running roughshod, Blizz will give you what you want, even if for only an expansion. That's fine, give me an Alliance that has no problem slaughtering them all til the streets run red with their blood. It should be tit for tat. If they are going to have the Horde do it and have it be a draw, the Alliance should do it too. Just to make it clear that both sides are "shades of grey" as everyone likes to put it.

[The Madgod]

Blizz needed a plot device to move a story forward that by all rights should have been wrapped up years ago. There is virtually no practical reason for the Horde and Alliance to fight anymore, and a few inter-faction groups already function cooperatively together (Earthen Ring, Cenarion Circle, etc). But people cried that they wanted more war in Warcraft, so rather than conceive of a good reason for the two factions to fight again, Blizz just went the cheap route and made a deus ex machina in Garrosh to pointlessly keep it going.

Deus ex Machina - when some new event, character, ability, or object solves a seemingly unsolvable problem. (See: TvTropes)

I'm pretty sure Garrosh creating new conflict is the exact opposite of a Deus ex Machina. A Deus ex Machina in warcraft could potentially be Velen using Mu'ru's essence to purify the Sunwell.

[Aquamonkey]

What corruption and damage? Thrall is the only reason the Orcs are even alive.

Really though, you speak as though the story is independent of writers which are steering in directions that appeal to them, especially when it comes to Orcs. No matter what they do they can always be portrayed positively. Thats the problem with the writing. Fans like you want a brutal, sadistic Horde running roughshod, Blizz will give you what you want, even if for only an expansion. That's fine, give me an Alliance that has no problem slaughtering them all til the streets run red with their blood. It should be tit for tat. If they are going to have the Horde do it and have it be a draw, the Alliance should do it too. Just to make it clear that both sides are "shades of grey" as everyone likes to put it.

There was that one guy with this mentality in 7 Stars who wanted to weaponize the Sha energy. But they quickly shut him up.

---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 12:17 AM ----------

Blizz needed a plot device to move a story forward that by all rights should have been wrapped up years ago. There is virtually no practical reason for the Horde and Alliance to fight anymore, and a few inter-faction groups already function cooperatively together (Earthen Ring, Cenarion Circle, etc). But people cried that they wanted more war in Warcraft, so rather than conceive of a good reason for the two factions to fight again, Blizz just went the cheap route and made a deus ex machina in Garrosh to pointlessly keep it going.

I heard Blizzard did it because the fans demanded they bring the 'war' back into Warcraft.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Garrosh is a pissed off orc who is mad because his people are stuck in a desert, not thriving, and dependent on Alliance resources. Garrosh wants the Horde to unite and conquer Azeroth from the Alliance and carve up a thriving empire for his people. Basically, he expects the whole Horde to fall in line and follow him, say as a return for all that the orcs did for the Horde i.e. fighting their wars and helping them secure their nations. Problem is, none of the other Horde leaders believe in him nor his vision of a Horde dominated Azeroth. You have people like Baine and Vol'jin who have been undermining his vision and leadership at every turn. And those that are most active in his mission are disingenuous about their loyalties and do so reluctantly like Sylvanas. Gallywix is only as loyal as long it profits him. And Lor'themar well Garrosh was just stupid in using his people as meat shields. Garrosh is abrasive and reckless with those he is strongarming to follow him which festers resentment and discontent. Only the orcs are completely 100% with him because they believe in his mission but because Garrosh will stop at nothing for victory, I wonder how long even that popular support will last when the consequences of his recklessness start effecting the homeland.

[Justignoreme]

There was that one guy with this mentality in 7 Stars who wanted to weaponize the Sha energy. But they quickly shut him up.

Ya, but its a slightly different circumstance. Weaponising Sha is stupid, dangerous and flatout foolish. It's on par with using a disease as a weapon, a change in the wind and your own army is infected and dying from it.

I just get really tired of hearing "Alliance has done just as many bad things to the Horde as the Horde has done to them, it's all a shade of grey" and when it comes to examples, its usually Garithos called Blood Elves names and Humans locked up the Orcs after the second war (as opposed to executing them all for the events of the first and second wars). So, if I'm going to be told I have blood of innocent horde on my Alliance toons hands, I want it there. Ya, it's a shade of grey cause, in response to the slaughter at Silverwind, the Night Elves sacked Zoramgar and burned it to the ground with every last NPC there, regardless of affiliation. Then you can say both sides have done horrible things. It's looking awefully one-sided but then a cdev insults my intelligence with the ability to read this biased crap story and tells me that the faction which dropped a bomb on a school and delights in wanton destruction purely to sow pain and misery is on the same moral footing as one who wants to be left alone, have their land respected and focus on bigger problems, like a giant metal dragon of the apocalypse. People want to drag up the events of WC3 as a reason for Cataclysm; disregarding the fact that the super heated events of WC3 were reconciled to defeat Archimonde and beyond scope of examination.

[theKarn]

No, no it wasn't. That's why Garrosh is so popular. He appealed to the younger, brash generation who were not properly taught the negatives that occurred because of the first and second wars, as well as what happened on Draenor. They were taught that the old ways were good, but not WHY.

Also, your grasp of orcish lore is lacking. You should really read Rise of the Horde. Thrall's the savior of the orcs, not the corruptor

Thrall is the savior of a broken people. He broke their cage. He, personally, can't restore what was lost in their breaking. Thrall never had it to begin with. The people that follow thrall are imitating him in a hope to gain some sort of identity. A contradictory identity to their nature.

What corruption and damage? Thrall is the only reason the Orcs are even alive.

Really though, you speak as though the story is independent of writers which are steering in directions that appeal to them, especially when it comes to Orcs. No matter what they do they can always be portrayed positively. Thats the problem with the writing. Fans like you want a brutal, sadistic Horde running roughshod, Blizz will give you what you want, even if for only an expansion. That's fine, give me an Alliance that has no problem slaughtering them all til the streets run red with their blood. It should be tit for tat. If they are going to have the Horde do it and have it be a draw, the Alliance should do it too. Just to make it clear that both sides are "shades of grey" as everyone likes to put it.

I do not want a horde that mindlessly slaughters innocents, either. I want a horde, and orcish race, that can stand up and be proud. Not just cowardly standing still, defending, while bring trounced over by the Alliance.

[The Madgod]

Thrall is the savior of a broken people. He broke their cage. He, personally, can't restore what was lost in their breaking. Thrall never had it to begin with. The people that follow thrall are imitating him in a hope to gain some sort of identity. A contradictory identity to their nature.

Thrall represents the true nature of the orcs better than garrosh does.

The orcs were broken because they grew away from the things Thrall represents. Again, read Rise of the Horde. The orcs willingly followed him to try and restore their roots and regain a lost identity, not imitating him, but failed to instil this into the younger generation, hence the current issue.

Again, you don't have a firm grasp on the lore of the orcs. The idea of the orcs you hold in your mind is contradictory to documented sources of lore.

[Aquamonkey]

Ya, but its a slightly different circumstance. Weaponising Sha is stupid, dangerous and flatout foolish. It's on par with using a disease as a weapon, a change in the wind and your own army is infected and dying from it.

I just get really tired of hearing "Alliance has done just as many bad things to the Horde as the Horde has done to them, it's all a shade of grey" and when it comes to examples, its usually Garithos called Blood Elves names and Humans locked up the Orcs after the second war (as opposed to executing them all for the events of the first and second wars). So, if I'm going to be told I have blood of innocent horde on my Alliance toons hands, I want it there. Ya, it's a shade of grey cause, in response to the slaughter at Silverwind, the Night Elves sacked Zoramgar and burned it to the ground with every last NPC there, regardless of affiliation. Then you can say both sides have done horrible things. It's looking awefully one-sided but then a cdev insults my intelligence with the ability to read this biased crap story and tells me that the faction which dropped a bomb on a school and delights in wanton destruction purely to sow pain and misery is on the same moral footing as one who wants to be left alone, have their land respected and focus on bigger problems, like a giant metal dragon of the apocalypse. People want to drag up the events of WC3 as a reason for Cataclysm; disregarding the fact that the super heated events of WC3 were reconciled to defeat Archimonde and beyond scope of examination.

At least Varian grew some balls and sacked Undercity in Sylvanas' vision, even if it was against a crippled Forsaken military. But in the end, it was the Forsaken tossing themselves into the fires. The writers kept the hands of the Alliance clean.

[theKarn]

Thrall represents the true nature of the orcs better than garrosh does.

The orcs were broken because they grew away from the things Thrall represents. Again, read Rise of the Horde. The orcs willingly followed him to try and restore their roots and regain a lost identity, not imitating him, but failed to instil this into the younger generation, hence the current issue.

Again, you don't have a firm grasp on the lore of the orcs. The idea of the orcs you hold in your mind is contradictory to documented sources of lore.

If thrall had some drive to better his peoples situation I wouldn't have such animosity toward him. Instead of doing that he threw the reins to, a clearly inexperienced, garrosh then goes off to play batman while starting a family.

[Aquamonkey]

If thrall had some drive to better his peoples situation I wouldn't have such animosity toward him. Instead of doing that he threw the reins to, a clearly inexperienced, garrosh then goes off to play batman while starting a family.

I believe one of Thrall's greatest missteps was not restoring the role of Elder Shaman to serve as moral and spiritual guidance for the Orcs. Thrall was all about returning his people to shamanism, but completely forgot it's most important institution for moderating the Orcs' natural aggression.

[The Madgod]

If thrall had some drive to better his peoples situation I wouldn't have such animosity toward him. Instead of doing that he threw the reins to, a clearly inexperienced, garrosh then goes off to play batman while starting a family.

The betterment of his people, or the fate of the entire world?

Hmm, what would you choose, I wonder?

The Shattering does a very good job of showing why Thrall did what he did when he chose Garrosh. You're overly harsh on someone who had little time to make a decision and made one that was actually fairly logical. Plus, would you REALLY prefer a character who didn't make mistakes, and was always doing the right (read: morally right and correct) thing?

Even the best of us make mistakes, and the mistakes of those in power tend to have larger consequences. Hating Thrall as a character because he made a mistake makes just as much sense as hating him as a character when he does something right.

Dude, just stop. Quit while you're ahead xD

[bufferunderrun]

I just did some of the Landing quests, and noticed while at first, Garrosh seemed pretty cool, when he assisted the Goblins, and they express their thanks, he literally goes on to say he came to save the supplies the Goblins were working on, and even mocks them. Then he threatens them to get to work, by bringing Orcs to make sure of it. Then later, he excessively mocks Vol'jin for no reason at all, and when Vol'jin questions what his motives are, he orders his assassination. I mean wtf, he didn't even do anything.

But when you look at Cataclysm, he had almost none of these traits, and was at least honorable.

read the books seriously if you take only the quests in game you cannot possibly grasp the changes that are going on with garrosh and the others especially Jaina and end up thinking that blizzard pulled that stunt out of their asses; fyi garrosh is becoming more like the old orc leaders a power ungry thugs that think of himself as the horde.

[Therougetitan]

With the exception of Zaela the younger generation was heavily influenced by Thrall which is why the vision of what it means to be a true orc has been blurred. I have a feeling that Thrall realized this and tried to rectify it when he let garrosh take the reins. The corruption that Thrall has brought to the Orcish race has seeped too far into the other members of his people.... I don't think anyone can really fix the damage done to them.

On the topic of Zaela... she's a young upstart with crazy ideas!

How could Zaela be heavily influenced by Thrall?

She's a Dragonmaw orc, they never joined Thrall's Horde and only joined just recently in Cataclysm. Since the second war they've been chilling in the Wetlands/Highland.

[theKarn]

The betterment of his people, or the fate of the entire world?

Hmm, what would you choose, I wonder?

The Shattering does a very good job of showing why Thrall did what he did when he chose Garrosh. You're overly harsh on someone who had little time to make a decision and made one that was actually fairly logical. Plus, would you REALLY prefer a character who didn't make mistakes, and was always doing the right (read: morally right and correct) thing?

Even the best of us make mistakes, and the mistakes of those in power tend to have larger consequences. Hating Thrall as a character because he made a mistake makes just as much sense as hating him as a character when he does something right.

Dude, just stop. Quit while you're ahead xD

You don't abandon your people, first off, and secondly you can't hold up a mirror while firing dragon lasers and still be part of the horde? I don't recall the aspects giving thrall an ultimatum on the matter.

As for my choice? You tell your people that "we're going to do this together" then do it alone. After you come back you just say "We did it!".

I believe Thrall should be outed by the people of the horde for abandoning them. This wasn't just a mistake it was him turning his back on them.

Sure have characters make mistakes, but expecting them to save the world and be able to come back as if it never happened.... come on.

How could Zaela be heavily influenced by Thrall?

She's a Dragonmaw orc, they never joined Thrall's Horde and only joined just recently in Cataclysm. Since the second war they've been chilling in the Wetlands/Highland.

With the exception of Zaela, the younger generation was heavily influenced by Thrall. Punctuation failure.

[The Madgod]

You don't abandon your people, first off, and secondly you can't hold up a mirror while firing dragon lasers and still be part of the horde? I don't recall the aspects giving thrall an ultimatum on the matter.

As for my choice? You tell your people that "we're going to do this together" then do it alone. After you come back you just say "We did it!".

I believe Thrall should be outed by the people of the horde for abandoning them. This wasn't just a mistake it was him turning his back on them.

Sure have characters make mistakes, but expecting them to save the world and be able to come back as if it never happened.... come on.

Yeah okay, I'm done with you. You are ignoring so much of the lore and are effectively asking for Thrall to be a Mary Sue, and that's just... so wrong...

I thought this'd be a fun mental exercise, but I think I'll retire early in the comfort that I at least understand the political and social intricacies of the Horde and the events which led to Garrosh's rise to power.

[Verdugo]

SI:7 is the most useless "intelligence" organisation that ever existed is the point.

Maybe if they stoped using halloween masks as cover...