1. #13461
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post

    The break in the narrative to a deus ex machina is objectively bad in any literature. This is really not up for debate.
    It actually is as not only do you not understand what "objective" criteria is and also the fact that I'm not the only one debating you at this point . Literature and the study of literature isn't a hard science and doesn't have data or evidence that can be empirically judged. You can't qualify "good" literature as an empirical measurement. In fact even hard science is up for debate so long as empiricism is being practiced. Like if I had empirical evidence that you know god created man and it was verifiable and tested and I published a paper that was subject to a peer review then in that sense evolution would be up for a date. So far no one has done that and Evolution appears to fit all the evidence we have. You can't subject your opinion about literature to that same process though. Your opinion about it being bad isn't objective, it's entirely SUBJECTIVE and that's fine. If you had a university professor tell me the same thing it would still be his SUBJECTIVE opinion but it would be a noted one and worth considering given his or her position. Their is ZERO I REPEAT ZERO way you can turn the "ending is bad" into an objective criteria. Now THAT is really not up for debate.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-02-25 at 08:09 PM.

  2. #13462
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,490
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Destroy destroyed the mass relays pre-EC, which effectively turned the galaxy into a new dark age. If you disagree, you don't understand how large the galaxy is, nor do you understand the technological limits that was hard built into the series i.e. it would take close to 300 years to span the galaxy without the Mass relays.
    The Mass Relays were never destroyed just damaged. Bioware stated from the beginning that Destroy doesn't mean they will never have Mass Relays again. Synthesis is far different then you and an AI becoming a super computer. Synthesis is changing all life into new form of synthetic-organic hybrid and not just merging your consciousness together. If anything the Deus Ex choice is closer to control the Synthesis (because Blue/control is becoming a new "super" consciousness that controls everything).

    Controlling the world through a council of people isn't the same as control a creatures bent on world domination. Also the entity that Shepard becomes isn't vulnerable to corruption because it isn't human. It is essentially an AI that is bound by the will of Shepard. Which yes could be domination (if you are a renegade Shepard) but also doesn't have to be.

    The endings are nothing alike. The story behind them are different. The story behind the choices is different. And the story as a result of the choices is different. The key word is Different.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  3. #13463
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Mass Relays were never destroyed just damaged.
    From destroy:




    A picture of a mass relay being blown to bits.



    If you cannot even start off with a truthful point, I don';t really want to hand hold you through this entire process of proving you wrong.

  4. #13464
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    From destroy:




    A picture of a mass relay being blown to bits.



    If you cannot even start off with a truthful point, I don';t really want to hand hold you through this entire process of proving you wrong.
    Actually that doesn't show they were destroyed or "blown to bits", it just shows a huge explosion. Now go back and watch the extended cut where they get repaired.....

  5. #13465
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,490
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The break in the narrative to a deus ex machina is objectively bad in any literature. This is really not up for debate.
    Except the Catalyst isn't a Deus Ex Machina device. We knew something controlled and directed the Reapers and that the Citadel was somehow the Catalyst. We also knew that somehow the Crucible when connected to the Catalyst would allow the Reapers to be destroyed. The problem being solved wasn't unexpected. Only the details weren't known but that doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #13466
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Except the Catalyst isn't a Deus Ex Machina device. We knew something controlled and directed the Reapers and that the Citadel was somehow the Catalyst. We also knew that somehow the Crucible when connected to the Catalyst would allow the Reapers to be destroyed. The problem being solved wasn't unexpected. Only the details weren't known but that doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina.
    Furthermore Deus Ex Machinas as a plot device are not "objectively" or even subjectively bad in the slightest. Classic greek literature used them extensively. Mass Effect 1 used it as well. Vigil was a massive Deus Ex Machina. Theirs a history of classic and great literature that uses them. Lord of the Flies, War of the Worlds, Robots of Dawn, Homers Odyssey.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-02-25 at 08:18 PM.

  7. #13467
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Except the Catalyst isn't a Deus Ex Machina device. We knew something controlled and directed the Reapers and that the Citadel was somehow the Catalyst. We also knew that somehow the Crucible when connected to the Catalyst would allow the Reapers to be destroyed. The problem being solved wasn't unexpected. Only the details weren't known but that doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina.

    sigh.....


    Deus ex machina:

    1. a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome

    2. a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...20ex%20machina




    The star kid is by the very definition of a deus ex machina. How many more posts are you going to post that I have to continually prove wrong?

  8. #13468
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    sigh.....


    Deus ex machina:

    1. a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome

    2. a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...20ex%20machina




    The star kid is by the very definition of a deus ex machina. How many more posts are you going to post that I have to continually prove wrong?
    The reaper dilemna was not an apparently insoluble difficulty. In fact the solution was the catalyst. The star child was a part of that.

  9. #13469
    Drawing comparisons between Vigil and the Catalyst, the difference is that the latter contained a lot of inconsistency.

    Vigil, an ancient prothean AI/VI. It doesn't sound too unplausable that an VI from 50,000 years ago could survive in a standby-mode. Vigil also provided a lot of lore & history pertaining the protheans & the Reapers.

    The Catalyst, presents you with weak logic & reasoning (which is something I wouldn't attribute to an AI). The biggest immersion breaker however was the so blatant obvious choice of 3 options, the way that they were visualized in the game totally broke the immersion. It would of been better if I simply could talk to the Catalyst and let it know my decision through dialouge.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  10. #13470
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    The reaper dilemna was not an apparently insoluble difficulty. In fact the solution was the catalyst. The star child was a part of that.
    /facepalm


    The kid was introduced to solve the problem in the last 5 minutes of the game.

  11. #13471
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Drawing comparisons between Vigil and the Catalyst, the difference is that the latter contained a lot of inconsistency.

    Vigil, an ancient prothean AI/VI. It doesn't sound too unplausable that an VI from 50,000 years ago could survive in a standby-mode. Vigil also provided a lot of lore & history pertaining the protheans & the Reapers.

    The Catalyst, presents you with weak logic & reasoning (which is something I wouldn't attribute to an AI). The biggest immersion breaker however was the so blatant obvious choice of 3 options, the way that they were visualized in the game totally broke the immersion. It would of been better if I simply could talk to the Catalyst and let it know my decision through dialouge.
    That wasn't really the point. In both cases both entities appear out of nowhere and give you invaluable assistance.

  12. #13472
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,490
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    If you cannot even start off with a truthful point, I don';t really want to hand hold you through this entire process of proving you wrong.
    The Mass relays are eventually rebuilt in Green and Red. I'm using damaged because you are using destroy to mean that they can never ever be rebuilt. I'm using damaged because they are rebuilt.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #13473
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    /facepalm


    The kid was introduced to solve the problem in the last 5 minutes of the game.
    He was introduced at the end yes but the problem itself as far as the viewer is concerned was to be solved by the catalyst. The problem of the reapers was not insolvable. Now you didn't know exactly what the catalyst would do but you knew that it was designed to stop the reapers which it did. Therefor the star child does not meet the criteria of Deus Ex by your own definition and even if you think he did then so what? Deus Ex Machina is not objectively or even subjectively a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. Some of the greatest works of literature contain it as a plot device.

  14. #13474
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    That wasn't really the point. In both cases both entities appear out of nowhere and give you invaluable assistance.
    Yeah, and the latter contained a lot of inconsistency. I never contested the deus ex-style of the ending itself, but rather how it was used in ME3.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  15. #13475
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,490
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Mass Effect 1 used it as well. Vigil was a massive Deus Ex Machina.
    It is funny how all the Prothean VI's are Deus Ex Machina. Just when Shepard needed answers in Mass Effect 3 we learn of a prothean VI that holds all of them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #13476
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yeah, and the latter contained a lot of inconsistency. I never contested the deus ex-style of the ending itself, but rather how it was used in ME3.
    I agree it could have been executed better. The best part about Vigil IMO was that you could interact with him alot more and get more depth out of him than the star kid. If the interaction with the star kid was on the same level as vigil it wouldn't sit so bad in peoples minds I feel. The EC did alot for that actually.

  17. #13477
    To the point of Vigil being a deus ex machina....LOL.


    Vigil never solved a problem. Vigil didn't resolve the conflict and story. Vigil, like a character, gave the player information that led to a conclusion.

  18. #13478
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is funny how all the Prothean VI's are Deus Ex Machina. Just when Shepard needed answers in Mass Effect 3 we learn of a prothean VI that holds all of them.
    Yea it's everywhere in the game. I wasn't really that surprised they used it at the end but I was still on the edge of my seat. It was still rather well executed from a atmosphere stand point.

  19. #13479
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    19,490
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The star kid is by the very definition of a deus ex machina. How many more posts are you going to post that I have to continually prove wrong?
    He isn't introduced unexpectedly with the ability to save the day. The Crucible is what is saving the day. The Catalyst (Star Child) is explaining why the crucible is able to save the day. The Catalyst isn't a god that is deciding the final outcome, Shepard decides. The Catalyst hasn't appeared suddenly or unexpectedly because we knew the Catalyst was the Citadel and that it was going to be part of the Crucible design to stop the reapers.

    The Catalyst appearing as a child holographic projection was unexpected and sudden. But that doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina because he isn't the only saving the day and providing the solution. He is only the one providing information about the Solution Shepard provided (by opening the Citadel and allowing the crucible to dock). With or with out the holographic image of a child the crucible still would have functioned the same way according to the story.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #13480
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Posts
    10,198
    This entire argument about whether or not Bioware should fix the ending is played out to the point of not even worth bringing up, to be honest. They're not changing it. Let it go.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •