Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

This thread should be locked. It's just getting to finger pointing.

[Seebach]

This statement could not be more wrong.

Who opened the Dark Portal to let the Horde into Azeroth?........... Sargeras = Fallen Titan
Who destroyed the kingdom of Lorederon and Quel'Thelas?........... Ner'zhul, The Lich King with Props by Kil'jaeden = Undead Orc and the Burning Legion
Who caused the shattering? .................................................. Deathwing and the Old Gods

I fixed that for you. That'll be $10.

[kingriku]

This thread should be locked. It's just getting to finger pointing.

The only person I think that is probably as worse as Garrosh is possibly Trassk for getting so angry at him.

Could you be more hypocritical? Pointing fingers eh? You went posted on the bnet forums abour trassk getting banned using his mmo-champ name to a bunch of people who have no clue who he is. Grow up man.

[Deleted]

It's Trassk. He got banned >.>

Funny thing is he doesn't usually post like that :P hes usually more neutral in his posts, maybe a little horde biased but dunno.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Could you be more hypocritical? Pointing fingers eh? You went posted on the bnet forums abour trassk getting banned using his mmo-champ name to a bunch of people who have no clue who he is. Grow up man.

I was telling people about the amusement that a opposing thread. When I said pointing fingers I was reffering to discussing the problems of Azeroth. That's not me being hypocritical. You're taking things out of context so get off my arse please.

I am grown up but apparently you don't think I am so please stop.

Funny thing is he doesn't usually post like that :P hes usually more neutral in his posts, maybe a little horde biased but dunno.

Yes, but when it comes to Alliance and Horde oh boy....things change.

[Zalinea]

Cataclysm?......................................................Old Gods via Deathwing

My statement was based on one earlier that said that orcs were responsible for everything that has happened... didn't mentioned the Cataclysm because it was deathwing, although he did have ties to the alliance in past lore but he was deceiving them so I wont go into that.

[leaks]

My statement was based on one earlier that said that orcs were responsible for everything that has happened... didn't mentioned the Cataclysm because it was deathwing, although he did have ties to the alliance in past lore but he was deceiving them so I wont go into that.

I believe you meant the sundering. The shattering was the cataclysm caused by Deathwing.

[Zalinea]

I fixed that for you. That'll be $10.

More wrong. Sargaras only opened one side of it. Arthas acted under his own free will when he walked down the path to destroy Lorderon, and wrong shattering I was talking about the one that created the maelstrom and broke up the world. And I misspoke, i meant Sundering.

Fee denied, bad check fee of $35. Thank you.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 04:15 PM ----------

I believe you meant the sundering. The shattering was the cataclysm caused by Deathwing.

Thank you that is what i meant.

[Aquamonkey]

I believe you meant the sundering. The shattering was the cataclysm caused by Deathwing.

Shattering is also called the 2nd Sundering. Just 1 more sundering and the Legion can really begin DPS'ing Azeroth.

[Zalinea]

Seen this argument a lot. Never seen any strong, reasoned justification for it.



The Orcs invaded Azeroth, slaughtered its people and assassinated its king. They invaded Khaz Modan, Quel'Thalas and Lordaeron in turn. They enslaved the Red Dragonflight. And they committed untold acts of wanton murder and destruction before they were defeated.

In this they acted exactly as they did to the Draenei, an act which took place before they suffered from the Blood Corruption.

To date, they have yet to acknowledge that anything that happened then was wrong.

When Thrall freed his people, his first act was to threaten war if Lordaeron didn't surrender and give the Orcs land for them to use and grow. His next was to attack several ports, and steal ships.

In Kalimdor, his forces under Grom attacked the Theramoran units. And while Kul Tirasian units did attempt to destroy them, Theramoran units did aid them. Thrall repaid the new Alliance by allowing the Warsong to attack the Night Elfs, he permitted the Forsaken to harass Alliance supply lines in the fight against the Scourge and he did nothing to rein in the Frostwolves who slaughtered a Dwarven expedition. Meanwhile, the Forsaken are running around carrying out experiments and attacking Lordaeron survivors.

While this short brings us up to Vanilla, it's hard to see the Alliance doing much fanning of the flames.



How? He didn't choose to settle Durotar. He didn't choose to spend precious resources on tools of war instead of industry or food. He didn't choose to allow Goblins to poison his capital cities water supply to the point it couldn't be drunk.He didn't fan the flames of Horde pride and nationalism so it supported acts of war and terrorism.

Garrosh did.

The absolute worst that he did was lose his temper when he found out exactly what had been happening to his people in Undercity at the time Thrall was preaching peace. He lost his temper because he found out Alliance citizens were being kidnapped, tortured, murdered and use to test and develop biological weapons of mass destruction. And this after forces that were supposedly loyal to the Horde used those same weapons at the Wrathgate, killing Bolvar.

Should he have patted Thrall on the back?



That'd be Garrosh.



By attending a peace summit, only to have his offer of peace and trade spurned by Mr Garrosh "Trade is for the weak; the strong take" Hellscream.

Varian fanned the flames of Garroshes hatred simply because he was the visible head of an Alliance that was bigger, stronger and more prosperous than the Horde.

EJL

1. The orcs never made to to Quel' Thelas.
2. Thrall did not threaten war in exchange for land.
3. The Thermoran soldiers were only there because they chased the orcs across the great sea because they hated them.
4. Thrall did not "allow" warsong to attack anyone. As soon Thrall saw what Grom was doing he intervened.

[leaks]

Shattering is also called the 2nd Sundering. Just 1 more sundering and the Legion can really begin DPS'ing Azeroth.

Hahaha, well at least we know why they failed the last 2 times. Damn impatient dps causing wipes.

[Seebach]

More wrong. Sargaras only opened one side of it. Arthas acted under his own free will when he walked down the path to destroy Lorderon, and wrong shattering I was talking about the one that created the maelstrom and broke up the world. And I misspoke, i meant Sundering.

Fee denied, bad check fee of $35. Thank you.[COLOR="red"]

Sargeras was the harbinger that started it all. He opened one side of it, but without his promise of new conquest, The Orcs would never have even tried to open the other side for him.

------------

In Northrend, Arthas became the first of the Lich King's death knights and slew many of his own men. Some among them (like Falric and Thassarian) were raised as death knights in Arthas's service.

Arthas returned to Lordaeron months later, and the kingdom rejoiced at the return of its champion. Flanked by Falric and Marwyn, Arthas entered the Imperial chamber and knelt before the throne. After telling his father that he no longer needed to bear the weight of his crown, Arthas walked up to Terenas and ran him through with Frostmourne. The king's bloodied, broken crown remains lost to this day.

Arthas then unleashed the Scourge upon the Capital City. He soon found Vivian, wife of the fallen hero Killoren. Sensing a conflict within Thassarian, Arthas ordered Thassarian to kill Vivian - his mother - in order to prove his loyalty.

Leaving Falric and Marwyn to oversee his forces in the city, Arthas ran to the Balnir Farmstead. There he used his necromantic powers to raise his faithful steed Invincible into undeath, allowing it to serve as his mount once again.

Weeks later, Arthas reappeared in Vandermar village at the bidding of his new master, the Lich King. There he met Tichondrius the Darkener, a dreadlord like Mal'Ganis. Thinking that the dreadlord was Mal'Ganis out for revenge, Arthas immediately threatened him, only to discover that this dreadlord had come to congratulate Arthas for his efforts. When spoken to Arthas said he no longer felt remorse for any of his actions. Tichondrius explained that the sword was designed to steal souls, and that Arthas' own soul was the first one it had claimed.

Arthas assembled the members of the vile Cult of the Damned that were hiding in Vandermar, and was aided by their magical abilities as he travelled to Andorhal where he was to recover Kel'Thuzad's corpse. Arthas killed the paladin guarding the crypt, Gavinrad the Dire, and recovered the remains of the necromancer. This brought Kel'Thuzad's ghost into being, and he secretly instructed Arthas not to trust the dreadlords. Arthas quietly contemplated this.

Kel'Thuzad's remains were badly decomposed and needed to be taken to the mystical Sunwell in Quel'Thalas to be revived. Tichondrius sent Arthas to recover a mystical urn, which could be used to transport Kel'Thuzad's remains. However, the urn was in the keeping of the Knights of the Silver Hand. Arthas killed two paladins, Ballador the Bright and Sage Truthbearer, who both condemned Arthas' betrayal. He then faced Uther the Lightbringer, who explained that the urn held the ashes of his father, King Terenas. Arthas murdered his life-long mentor and seized the urn. Abandoning his father's remains, he replaced them with those of Kel'Thuzad, then began the long journey to Quel'Thalas.

Arthas met heavy resistance from the elves, rallied by Ranger-General Sylvanas Windrunner. Driving their forces before his undead army, he steadily pushed her people back in a swath of destruction towards Silvermoon. Sylvanas tried to warn the vast elven capital of the coming of the Scourge, but Arthas destroyed her camps and killed the Ranger-General. To make her pay for her perceived insolence towards him, Arthas corrupted her elven spirit, transforming it into a horrendous twisted form (a banshee) and enslaving her to the will of the Lich King, forcing her to slay her own people.

Arthas, along with the marching armies of the Scourge annihilated Silvermoon, leaving it in ruins. On the road to the Sunwell, he faced Anasterian Sunstrider, the aged High King of Quel'Thalas, and killed him with minimal struggle. Arthas then used the Sunwell to bring Kel'Thuzad back to life, reborn as an undead lich.

-------------

He wasn't doing this of his own free will. Lordaeron, big maybe, as there never seems to be any dialogue that suggests that he did this for the Lich King, but also none to suggest he did so for himself. Quel'thalas, he was instructed by Tichondrius at the behest of the Lich King to collect Kel'thuzad and have him ranimated as a lich in the Sunwell, and after Kel'thuzad would later instruct Arthas at the Lich Kings behest.

-------------

If you mispoke and meant the sundering that goes hand in hand with Sargeras = The fallen Titan and Azshara = Leader of the Night Elves. However, Sargeras was the Master Architect for the scheme, he deserves the credit far more than Azshara, who was his peon in the matter.

Since you tried to deny my fee, I'll be taking you to small claims court, where I will be asking for an addition $500, 50 times more than I originaly even asked for, plus expenses up to and including gas, food, and lodging (assuming this will be conducted in a neutral court).

[Aquamonkey]

Sargeras was the harbinger that started it all. He opened one side of it, but without his promise of new conquest, The Orcs would never have even tried to open the other side for him.

It was demons that originally corrupted Sargeras.

Gul'dan was convinced by Medivh (Sargeras) to open the Portal by promising him great power from the Tomb of Sargeras. The Orcs didn't invade Azeroth because they were promised conquest. They did it to escape their dying planet (which was dying because of the Legion). Neither Gul'dan nor any of the other Orcs knew anything about what was on Azeroth. All they knew was that it wasn't a dying planet like Draenor. At first, they were surprised and disheartened because the Portal opened into a swamp. Gul'dan was as surprised as everyone else, but immediately tried to spin it by reasoning that the whole planet must not look like that.

[Zalinea]

Sargeras was the harbinger that started it all. He opened one side of it, but without his promise of new conquest, The Orcs would never have even tried to open the other side for him.

------------

In Northrend, Arthas became the first of the Lich King's death knights and slew many of his own men. Some among them (like Falric and Thassarian) were raised as death knights in Arthas's service.

Arthas returned to Lordaeron months later, and the kingdom rejoiced at the return of its champion. Flanked by Falric and Marwyn, Arthas entered the Imperial chamber and knelt before the throne. After telling his father that he no longer needed to bear the weight of his crown, Arthas walked up to Terenas and ran him through with Frostmourne. The king's bloodied, broken crown remains lost to this day.

Arthas then unleashed the Scourge upon the Capital City. He soon found Vivian, wife of the fallen hero Killoren. Sensing a conflict within Thassarian, Arthas ordered Thassarian to kill Vivian - his mother - in order to prove his loyalty.

Leaving Falric and Marwyn to oversee his forces in the city, Arthas ran to the Balnir Farmstead. There he used his necromantic powers to raise his faithful steed Invincible into undeath, allowing it to serve as his mount once again.

Weeks later, Arthas reappeared in Vandermar village at the bidding of his new master, the Lich King. There he met Tichondrius the Darkener, a dreadlord like Mal'Ganis. Thinking that the dreadlord was Mal'Ganis out for revenge, Arthas immediately threatened him, only to discover that this dreadlord had come to congratulate Arthas for his efforts. When spoken to Arthas said he no longer felt remorse for any of his actions. Tichondrius explained that the sword was designed to steal souls, and that Arthas' own soul was the first one it had claimed.

Arthas assembled the members of the vile Cult of the Damned that were hiding in Vandermar, and was aided by their magical abilities as he travelled to Andorhal where he was to recover Kel'Thuzad's corpse. Arthas killed the paladin guarding the crypt, Gavinrad the Dire, and recovered the remains of the necromancer. This brought Kel'Thuzad's ghost into being, and he secretly instructed Arthas not to trust the dreadlords. Arthas quietly contemplated this.

Kel'Thuzad's remains were badly decomposed and needed to be taken to the mystical Sunwell in Quel'Thalas to be revived. Tichondrius sent Arthas to recover a mystical urn, which could be used to transport Kel'Thuzad's remains. However, the urn was in the keeping of the Knights of the Silver Hand. Arthas killed two paladins, Ballador the Bright and Sage Truthbearer, who both condemned Arthas' betrayal. He then faced Uther the Lightbringer, who explained that the urn held the ashes of his father, King Terenas. Arthas murdered his life-long mentor and seized the urn. Abandoning his father's remains, he replaced them with those of Kel'Thuzad, then began the long journey to Quel'Thalas.

Arthas met heavy resistance from the elves, rallied by Ranger-General Sylvanas Windrunner. Driving their forces before his undead army, he steadily pushed her people back in a swath of destruction towards Silvermoon. Sylvanas tried to warn the vast elven capital of the coming of the Scourge, but Arthas destroyed her camps and killed the Ranger-General. To make her pay for her perceived insolence towards him, Arthas corrupted her elven spirit, transforming it into a horrendous twisted form (a banshee) and enslaving her to the will of the Lich King, forcing her to slay her own people.

Arthas, along with the marching armies of the Scourge annihilated Silvermoon, leaving it in ruins. On the road to the Sunwell, he faced Anasterian Sunstrider, the aged High King of Quel'Thalas, and killed him with minimal struggle. Arthas then used the Sunwell to bring Kel'Thuzad back to life, reborn as an undead lich.

-------------

He wasn't doing this of his own free will. Lordaeron, big maybe, as there never seems to be any dialogue that suggests that he did this for the Lich King, but also none to suggest he did so for himself. Quel'thalas, he was instructed by Tichondrius at the behest of the Lich King to collect Kel'thuzad and have him ranimated as a lich in the Sunwell, and after Kel'thuzad would later instruct Arthas at the Lich Kings behest.

-------------

If you mispoke and meant the sundering that goes hand in hand with Sargeras = The fallen Titan and Azshara = Leader of the Night Elves. However, Sargeras was the Master Architect for the scheme, he deserves the credit far more than Azshara, who was his peon in the matter.

Since you tried to deny my fee, I'll be taking you to small claims court, where I will be asking for an addition $500, 50 times more than I originaly even asked for, plus expenses up to and including gas, food, and lodging (assuming this will be conducted in a neutral court).

And why was Arthas in northrend? He had the chance to do what was right and did not so wall of text negated by a choice freely made before it. Also Azshara still = Night Elves since this whole post is is blaming whole races because of what their "Leader" did

Point, set match. Judgement in favor of the defendant.

[Uennie]

This thread should be locked. It's just getting to finger pointing.

Yeah I don't know how it hasn't been locked it's just going in circles now with the same things over and over.

[SodiumChloride]

Using weapons developed while they were loyal by the leader who is "loyal" to the Horde.

I don't see a problem with this. In time of "peace", prepare for war. Having WMDs isn't a "crime".

Hardly. CT was a simple breakdown in discipline because some of the troops used were criminals given a pardon in exchange for service. Petty larceny was not quite on the same scale as treachery and biological warfare.

Nonetheless a "moral failing". And Wrathgate only involve military personnel unlike CT.

It was a military outpost who trained, equipped and recruited a lot over the years. One of the troopers so recruited was yourself.

You serious? Every damn zone in the game fits that definition then. LOL.

If you played through CT pre-cata, you would know there is zero training at CT. You were sent there to help out with the quilboar and local wild life problems.

Lastly, we players aren't really part of our faction's military - unless you grinded AV in vanilla; even then we aren't really "active personnel". We are free-lance mercenaries.

Innocents die in war. It's tragic. In this scenario, the Alliance force went out of its way to ensure as few casualties as possible. From what we know, they succeeded. Did CT need to be taken? Yes. Could the Alliance have attacked and actually massacred everyone there? Yes. Did they? No.

Wrathgate was unintentional too. Don't see you giving the Horde any slack.

Theramore was a legitimate target. The problem is HOW it was done. Dropping a nuke on it was not really seen as an acceptable tactic in war. It can't even be argued that Garrosh did so to save his own troops...because he sent them in and got a lot of them killed off anyway. He nuked a city he knew was filled with civilians and killed off a lot of his own troops as a diversion.

Says you. If it was the Alliance that drop a "WMD", I bet you would be singing a different tune.

He sent them in on foot anyway. He got massive losses. Would he have had more without the bomb? Maybe....but part of the reason his troops got hit so hard was because he let Theramore be fortified because he waited. Had he thrown his troops at Theramore without waiting, he likely would have taken the city and his losses may even have been less.

It would turn it into a military quagmire ... What you think the Alliance would just give up?

Don't see this as an excuse or justification. Varian caught the Forsaken redhanded developing WMDs and doing so while Thrall was urging peace and at a time when the Alliance and Horde were again fighting together against a common foe

Not justifying anything. Just pointing out the Forsaken treat everyone equally. Nothing against the Alliance. Some of the Forsaken are plain nuts. LOL.

[iscalio]

3. The Thermoran soldiers were only there because they chased the orcs across the great sea because they hated them.
4. Thrall did not "allow" warsong to attack anyone. As soon Thrall saw what Grom was doing he intervened.

3. Completely false. Jaina was approached by the Prophet just like Thrall to lead her people to Kalimdor. They did not follow the orcs, nor were they there because of them.
4. False again. While Thrall did not want Grom to attack the humans and dwarves, once he did he did not even tell him it was wrong. He just went with it and slaughtered them all. He was always too lenient on Grom.

Both points are made very clear in Warcraft 3.

[Talen]

1. The orcs never made to to Quel' Thelas.

They invaded and burned the Elves forests. Which is why a certain bunch of High Elves really, real;ly, really hate them.

2. Thrall did not threaten war in exchange for land.

I'd reread the message he gave Langston. Essentially - "Give us land or we'll give you war."

3. The Thermoran soldiers were only there because they chased the orcs across the great sea because they hated them.

The Theramoran soldiers were there because Jaina listened to Medivh when she evacuated Lordaeron.

4. Thrall did not "allow" warsong to attack anyone. As soon Thrall saw what Grom was doing he intervened.

At which stage, his forces under Groms command had already attacked the humans.

I don't see a problem with this. In time of "peace", prepare for war. Having WMDs isn't a "crime".

Murder. Torture. Kidnap. Medical experimentation. Weapon testing. All went on to help the Forsaken develop these weapons. Would you expect the leader of our nation to turn a blind eye if another country did this to your citizens?

Nonetheless a "moral failing".

I don't put what turned out to be petty larceny and looting on the same scale as genocide and use of a weapon of mass destruction.

You serious? Every damn zone in the game fits that definition then. LOL.

Yes. And?

If you played through CT pre-cata, you would know there is zero training at CT. You were sent there to help out with the quilboar and local wild life problems.

You get training by being sent on quests. You got rewarded via gear and gold.

Lastly, we players aren't really part of our faction's military - unless you grinded AV in vanilla; even then we aren't really "active personnel". We are free-lance mercenaries.

In Cata, I got made a Horde general before Garrosh demoted me.

Says you. If it was the Alliance that drop a "WMD", I bet you would be singing a different tune.

Maybe. Maybe not. Currently, I can't think of any Alliance WMDs.

It would turn it into a military quagmire ... What you think the Alliance would just give up?

No. But you miss the point. He got a lot of his troops slaughtered for nothing. Had he not tried to be "smart", he very likely would have taken Theramore, and possibly done so with fewer losses. As a result, he almost immediately lost control of Theramore, had to suffer the loss of every single gain his forces made and almost lost Orgimmar. His campaign against Theramore ultimately cost him and the Horde a lot while gaining him little a direct attack against Theramore woudl ahve achieved except a few more dead Alliance soldiers.

He could have taken Theramore with either the bomb...or with his troops. He used both.

EJL

[Seebach]

It was demons that originally corrupted Sargeras.

Gul'dan was convinced by Medivh (Sargeras) to open the Portal by promising him great power from the Tomb of Sargeras. The Orcs didn't invade Azeroth because they were promised conquest. They did it to escape their dying planet (which was dying because of the Legion). Neither Gul'dan nor any of the other Orcs knew anything about what was on Azeroth. All they knew was that it wasn't a dying planet like Draenor. At first, they were surprised and disheartened because the Portal opened into a swamp. Gul'dan was as surprised as everyone else, but immediately tried to spin it by reasoning that the whole planet must not look like that.

You are thinking of the second time the Horde invaded Azeroth, which was to collect powerful artifacts to escape Draenor.

The first time that they invaded was so that they could be the Legions first assault on the legions second attempt to destroy Azeroth.

[Linkedblade]

Cataclysm?......................................................Old Gods via Deathwing

He means the War of the Ancients which would be the Sundering.