Rogue's not popular because they can't Stunlock/insta kill people.

[Deleted]

Meh what expac is GC on?
I remember in Vanilla this happening alot but as far back as tbc Stunlock 100-0 just wasnt really possible unless you had no res whatsoever.

I remeber I used to get ripped from rogues on my lock back then (even the ones that used to run dual mace) still wasnt enough to stunlock me to death.
After I got some S4 gear aswell 100-10% became 100-25% by the time I was wearing mostly full pvp gear a rogues stunlock was roughly bringing me 100-40ish%
and then it was as easy as fear and SL/SL if anyone remembers.

Its funny actually cause around mid tbc I was so fed up with rogues I decided to roll one to learn how to better counter em
Its been my main ever since then

Rogues had an appeal back then and abit in Wotlk but all this menacing deadlyness is gone with all the game changes.
I remember from vanilla through wotlk I used to physically jump abit of my chair everytime I heard the stealth sound.

The thing imo is not that they broke rogues, but simply that the game and all the other classes have evolved while rogues where left with an outdated arsenal and purpose in pvp.

[DisposableHero]

The answer to second tweet about energy regen and the pace of play prompted me to respond. Their vision of rogues is what landed them with the current population level, would it not be wise to consider the possibility that their vision of rogues is part of the problem. This is an unwillingness to self examine I have noticed in GC before on other subjects and it is an attitude that concerns me a great deal. The essence of good design is the ability to examine and challenge your assumptions when you reach a problem you have not been able to solve.

[Deleted]

The answer to second tweet about energy regen and the pace of play prompted me to respond. Their vision of rogues is what landed them with the current population level, would it not be wise to consider the possibility that their vision of rogues is part of the problem. This is an unwillingness to self examine I have noticed in GC before on other subjects and it is an attitude that concerns me a great deal. The essence of good design is the ability to examine and challenge your assumptions when you reach a problem you have not been able to solve.

There has been an overall lack or dilution in class/spec vision or desire from the devs to make any class/spec distinctive in their own way. Forgoing the usual complaints of class homogenization with changes like giving Time Warp to mages so you didn't have to bring that shaman ( a positive change in my book) there is now a prevalent attitude from Blizzard that anything unique or distinctive is by definition bad. Overall, a lot of classes and not just rogues are finding their enjoyment suffering as Blizzard dilutes them but have no clear vision on what their new incarnations should be about. Rogues had very little going for them, but managed to carve an audience through their gameplay and, yes, one of the major attractions was their PvP allure. For years Blizzard got by with little or no change to the class with the mantra of "we got rogues right the first time, no need for drastic changes". Higher HP pools and other changes seen the population plummet, and their answer was too seriously overbuff them and gift them legendaries, without actually rethinking about what the rogues class and it's three specs should mean in the WoW of 2013. Of course rogues suffer from the same problem mages do when any perceived buff has the forums flooded with complaints and over the top PvP balance woes. Rogues are just the most obvious example of what is wrong with class design at the moment.

[Guided by Voices]

Well said!

GC is correct about a lot of things, but this simply isn't one of them.

The ability to 100->0 a couple non-raid geared classes, most of whom did not have a pvp trinket in vanilla by popping every cooldown (and normally by being undead) may have made headlines and terrible movies versus warriors who don't press buttons, but it wasn't why people rolled rogues.


1)- Most of the advantages stealth granted in the world are pretty much gone now, because flying mounts.

One of the nicest things about stealth is that it prevents enemies from seeing you- both enemy players, and enemy mobs. It still does that, of course- but a flying mount does the second one far better, and honestly, isn't bad for the first one either. A high flying ganker can land on your face, and that simply wasn't true in vanilla. In vanilla, searching around your character as you ran your rotation prevented the unexpected entrance of everything that didn't have stealth. Now, that isn't true. This rogue advantage was handed, not just to druids, but to everyone!

A second part about this is that if you went somewhere with actually dangerous mobs- such as either of the plaguelands, or honestly even the wastelands near blackrock mountain- you were in danger of pulling aggro. Depending on the mobs, you could be dazed -> dismounted. This put a cognitive pressure over where you were likely to go. You may not have been aware of this, but the moment you pressed "stealth", the fact that it LEFT you like a ball of stress was noticeable. Farming mobs was actually an activity in vanilla that many players engaged in- you would go to a place with high level mobs and kill them as efficiently as possible. This activity, common in most MMOs, has all but entirely disappeared in modern WoW- mostly to heavy praise. But, it was something rogues excelled at. Your rogue could go back deep into the mobs and pick off the weaker or more profitable ones. You didn't have to carve a path through as most classes did. And of course, if you saw an enemy deep in combat, you could pick them off. With this activity mostly gone (dailies are the equivalent), a flying mount effortlessly takes you where you want to be, and lets you forget about enemies entirely.

2)- Rogue CC got handed out willy-nilly.

In vanilla, rogues had Cheapshot and Kidney shot, as well as blind (no one could trinket blind, but it could be dispelled). Sap was still there, as was gouge. Mace stun effect was also present. Rogues have gained garrote silence and paralytic poison, and lost mace stun effect- as well as CS and KS being on the same DR. That's not a lot of change. Each of these CCs has a pretty decent cost. CS costs a nontrivial amount of energy, and pressing it limits what the rogue can do next. Kidney shot costs a full suite of combo points. The design is that these abilities were to be powerful and synergistic with other classes- I blow my resources to lock him down, my ally tunnels into him with great damage. While MoP CLEARLY went overboard with CC, allowing huge CC chains with little coordination and low cooldowns, this was a problem that started getting snuck into BC, and only got worse with LK and Cata.
Shamans were a successful class in pvp with no stuns. Warriors had charge stun and that was pretty much it (the mace stun effect, when they had it in arena, was eventually recognized as just too powerful). Mages had no Deep Freeze. Druid stuns were dodgeable and required two globals- the feral ones were weaker than the rogue ones, and they couldn't just bust them out. Every expansion added large amounts of CC to the game. No one ever got cycloned in vanilla, for instance. Most of these CCs have been added FOR FREE- the cooldown is the only cost. Unlike rogue CCs, which have energy or combo point costs and limit what the rogue can do, many modern CCs deal damage (sometimes in an area) and stun or disorient (sometimes in an area). What stun costs rage? What stun costs rage in the same manner that kidney shot costs combo points or cheap shot costs energy? What stun costs runes? Or runic power? Yet, all these classes have stuns. Everything that made the rogue CC system powerful got handed out, but the disadvantages of the system never did.


3)- The combat system is way too similar on all three specs. There's no rogue spec that simply melts casterface, or one that is aces against warriors. But these classes DO have specs that are good against rogues. All of them, pretty much. This is short and simple- there's not enough differences in capabilities, and the ones we DID have, instead of being expanded upon and made awesome, just get deleted.

4)- Similar to the CC system, everything that made the rogue combat system interesting got handed out but the disadvantages of the system never did. You like the pacing of rogue energy, you'll probably like the runic system the DK has. Or the energy -> chi system the monk has. The advantages are mostly there, and the lock-in of combo points generally isn't.

[Justikhar]

Meh what expac is GC on?
I remember in Vanilla this happening alot but as far back as tbc Stunlock 100-0 just wasnt really possible unless you had no res whatsoever.

The thing imo is not that they broke rogues, but simply that the game and all the other classes have evolved while rogues where left with an outdated arsenal and purpose in pvp.

I dare say that equally applies to PVE, if not MORE so.

"So our utility is no longer unique, our performance isn't a differentiating factor, we lack the flexibility of hybrids, we have the liability of melee dps and to top it all off, we are lacking fun/iconic visuals to set us apart." ~ Aeriwen

[D3athsting]

Blizz decided to not revamp the rogue but to remake the class from scratch, they called the new class "monk".

[Fuggan]

Unless he actually plays a rogue, which he most probably does not, his theories doesn't hold that much weight.

Ghostcrawler doesn't play a rogue.

He made the rogue. So chances are, his theory does hold a little weight

[Wow]

Ghostcrawler doesn't play a rogue.

He made the rogue. So chances are, his theory does hold a little weight

Gc wasn't at blizzard until wrath you know the time when rogues pop took a massive nosedive.

[Johnkie]

Rogues aint as popular because they aint as faceroll as they were in cata.
Rogues aint as popular because other classes is OP.
Blizzard logic to fix problem is as following: Class A OP.... Class B UP... Ptr --> patch go live.
Class A UP now... Class B OP now...

Its so bloody unbelivable how retarded blizzard has become after they joined activision.

[Deleted]

Does this mean that other classes are popular because they can guarantee kill people?

No. He means that rogues were so overpowered that all the facerollers played rogue because it was secure kill when ganking people.
Interesting thing for him to say by the way seeing as they are practically back in that position again come 5.2.
Sometimes its like he doesnt even play the game he works on...

[Verain]

This thread is mostly back on track.

regen is TOO low, therefor the class is SLOW and UNFUN, want to bring your rogue players back up? Increase the sodding regen!
Our vision for rogues is not to have enough energy to fill every GCD. That makes energy not a thing.

This thing is something I agree with, though. If the game was designed such that you could constantly spam abilities, most abilities would be weaker. Simply compare combat's yellow attacks to mutilate's yellow attacks for a great example of this. You could, of course "roll the white damage into the yellow hits"- and that would make us look a lot more like a frost death knight- but this will definitely have some ramifications.

Simply put, I like that we can pool energy. I think the class would be worse without it. Being global capped frustrates me as I can't do anything but react. With some planing time, a lot of other things are possible. Clipping envenom, for instance, is a thing to think about, and it isn't if we regen like beasts.



Now, on the bigger note of burst:


If you made a rogue spec that did the same damage as, say, assassination but had very little of it as white damage, that spec would likely be superior in pvp. I would go so far as to say that assassination is the spec that should receive this treatment, as it already is lacking slice and dice in a meaningful way, and has nothing else working for it in pvp (unlike combat, which has a long stun and killing spree, along with AR boosting mobility, control, and damage, and sub, which gains wild utility and burst from shadow dance or restealths), after all its spec-defining pvp tricks were deleted in mop and literally replaced with nothing (less damage taken, cold blood burst, deadly poison procs cripple), and there weren't many to begin with.

I think it's obvious that the way that warriors deal damage is strictly SUPERIOR to rogues in pvp- there is much less setup, their stances are meaningful, their ability to line burst into a tiny window (with a powerful move entirely off the global) is substantial, and their cooldowns are wildly threatening. The same is true, honestly, of most classes and specs.


Blizzard is afraid of making a class like warriors, or death knights, with stealth added in. It's clear that they intend rogues to deal less damage in pvp. This is a fine line to balance on, but they are nowhere NEAR it for 5.0/5.1, with rogues as the worst class in the history of WoW (more broken and less represented than anything prior), and warriors having a rep that outdoes S5 DKs. 5.2, we'll see- but it's pretty clear that Blizzard doesn't want a rogue spec to act like a DK spec with stealth added in as a bonus.

[Mathris]

Basically the real reason is what Verain said. As the niche toolkit of rogues got handed out to other classes they became less and less powerful. Now, I see that CC spreading is, in general, a good thing because it means no one class has all the CC. It has its problems like the long chains of instant cast CC sure.

The biggest problem to me, a rogue player since late Vanilla, is that the class has hardly evolved since Burning Crusade. Go watch a Gladiator Rogue from then and one from now. You won't see much difference in the play style. All you'll see is new skills being used, smoke bomb, maybe even the new paralytic poison, shadowstep saps and a few new rogue tricks that people figured out (like being able to vanish blinds and sap vanishes in WotLK) but the general play style remains the same.

The argument for why they haven't evolved much was that in vanilla they were easily the most polished class. Their resource system was superior, their combat flow was superior and they had the most CC. My guess is because they were so well done compared to the rest at launch they've fallen behind in the development process as the other classes have been moved forward to where they are today. I'd dare say this lack of change causing stagnation with the class and the tool kit being given to other classes in sometimes superior forms is why the rogue population has been steadily going down. My hope for 6.0 is that the class gets a warlock level revamp. I remember hearing him say at BlizzCon when they announced the new talent system that "We had to redo warlocks because with the new talent system all three specs just felt like they were doing the same thing." and my first thought was that statement applied to rogues as well.

Anyway my two cents, enjoy.

[MaximusRex]

As someone who has played since 2004, Greg is probably right.

It was a huge meme for years that people rolled rogues to be cheap. And like all memes, there is a touch of truth in it for sure.

[Deleted]

Well let see
You arent top DPS in every fight and you cant gank other ppl to death till your stuns over so most of the rogues become to believe in Budah and they are monks now
Ofc there is a ppl who still like the art of the rogue ppl like me i dint carry about that i cant stunlock kill but i still can made someone life miserable till he fights with another person or try to heal

[Verain]

As someone who has played since 2004, Greg is probably right.

I've played since 2004 as well. I'll tell you, he's not.

It was a huge meme for years that people rolled rogues to be cheap. And like all memes, there is a touch of truth in it for sure.

Nah. People just don't like getting their face pushed in the dirt by an invisible guy.

Rogues weren't any kind of "guaranteed pvp victory" in vanilla. There were ways to exploit the CC system- for instance, blind was absolutely untrinketable (though it was dispellable), and you could prep into a second one, which for a decent part of the game, didn't even have DR with anything, including itself- in part because it was considered "an item". There were more broken things than this, but rogues were paper fragile (even moreso than today) and had the alpha strike in a game that largely didn't offer gear, so many undergears complained a lot- because they couldn't see the rogue coming, mostly.

[Adp]

I think there are many issues revolving around the rogue population numbers.

First, yes, GC is correct in the sense that rogues are no longer as powerful as they used to be coming from stealth. Hp scaling, resilience (and now base resil for all), DRs, trinkets, general cc given to most other classes with little penalty for use, even flying mounts.. all of these have undermined the stealth opener.

Second, rogues only do one function, which is dps. Back in the day day, there were very few viable melee classes, hell even viable melee specs were scarce. Now there are new classes with at least 2 functional melee dps specs in Monk/Dk. The old classes with melee dps specs like Ret, Feral, Enhance have been bolstered to compete. It's not so much a damage issue, it's really just a fundamental I can switch to another role in about 3 seconds with a respec or now with just dual spec. To exacerbate the issue, the rogue specs currently feel very similar in play style with the exception of the 1-2 cooldowns that seem to have "defined" the spec.

Third, Rogue's are designed for control. We all have OCD to some degree. The entire premise of control, however, is to keep it. This means that in pvp especially, a rogue has a lot of pre-planning to do based on the foe he goes up against. Am I gonna CS, am I gonna garrote, am I gonna follow up with SnD/Rupture/Evis/KS (for example a follow up KS might not be the smartest idea against a mage or a MW monk), am I gonna gouge here and pool, am I gonna burst at a certain %? Should I use vanish offensively or defensively, Clos offensively or defensively, ShS offensively or defensively, ShD for control or for burst. Personally, a rogue makes so many more decisions either before or in the middle of combat than many other classes. I think this is a turn off for most people who just want to turn off the brain and pew pew.

4th, we don't have great animations. Personally, I enjoy this aspect of the rogue since I don't like people knowing what I'm up to just based on seeing some sparkly visual. However, I can see how this might be a turn off to someone who enjoys say a Ret paladin. That being said, I don't see why there aren't better animations for finishers [I can envision some cool envenom animations], or for abilities only usable in stealth [case in point: shadow walk, where for a brief period of time no one knew if it did anything after you pressed the button].

That probably isn't all the issues surrounding rogues atm but I think it's a solid set that deserves some attention.

[Aliessil]

As far as PVE is concerned, I think the low population is simply because the class is pretty boring to play. Your typical rotation is 3 buttons with a 4th thrown in occasionally, and you spent half the time waiting for energy. Then add a combo point system which punishes you for changing targets.

I think if they moved the combo points from the target to the player (thereby meaning you can switch easily), and adding a low-damage attack which BUILDS energy instead of combo points, and you'd be on the way to making the class more interesting.

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler doesn't play a rogue.

He made the rogue. So chances are, his theory does hold a little weight

No, he didn't. The current state we're in only proves how little they know or care about the class. It's fucking laughable.

[bzhai]

Didn't they open up special threads and asked players to provide feedback and wishlists for each classes back in Cata? Everything that was posted there is echoed in the same forums here. Not only were they ignored, our complaints were trivialized during beta.

What GC said in that one short sentence sums up the developers' attitude about rogues. That it's a class for trolls and sore losers and therefore should be ignored. My pet theory is the developers sub-consciously want the rogue population to fade away. Possibly out of fear that making them cool and fun to play will alienate the rest of their playerbase.

[Coldkil]

Imho, a too drastic change to the class can bring more pain than advantages - both in terms of rogue players feeling and in balance and whines from other classes.

Anyway, the worst part of the "rogues affair" isn't actually the deep mechanic/class design problems; it's more the fact (as many pointed out) that a feedback from the entire rogue community has been provided for so long time during Cata and MoP beta and has been completely scrapped.

Now they are (again) going for band-aid fixes which make people sad and not happy of their char.