Trying to work on kitty dps. Is this expected?

[Meejum]

If Shred is not a DPS gain then I could put that glyph slot to very good use.

As said, Shred is a dps gain, assuming a bleed is up. The glyph is only useful if you pop zerk or TF and the boss turns or moves so that you are no longer behind it, potentially putting you in a position where you may energy cap (spirit kings and empress come to mind), since you were expecting to use energy to shred. So long as you know the fights, you should be able to expect when situations like this may happen and be ready to use a mangle, but reaction times vary. I personally dont use the glyph in favor of rebirth, since just about every situation where the shred glyph is helpful can be avoided with better play.

[kaiadam]

It's a dps gain, but not a huge loss if you're forced to switch to mangle.

As said, Shred is a dps gain, assuming a bleed is up. The glyph is only useful if you pop zerk or TF and the boss turns or moves so that you are no longer behind it, potentially putting you in a position where you may energy cap (spirit kings and empress come to mind), since you were expecting to use energy to shred. So long as you know the fights, you should be able to expect when situations like this may happen and be ready to use a mangle, but reaction times vary. I personally dont use the glyph in favor of rebirth, since just about every situation where the shred glyph is helpful can be avoided with better play.

I'm not sure you guys understood the previous posts.

Shred is NOT a dps gain over mangle in any measurable quantity over the course of a boss fight.

As Aggixx said earlier, shred is only a dps increase in two scenarios:

a.) You'll energy cap, might as well use the ability that costs more.
b.) It lets you know when you're behind the target (or rather, it tells you that you're in front and won't let you use the spell.)

Mangle is a dps gain or a wash in situations not involving the two above. (In either case, we're talking tenths and hundredths of a single percentage point, akin to being 3 rating or 6 rating over the hit cap.)

If you're going to argue that to a well-played druid won't need the glyph of shred (hah), then I can equally argue that neither of the above two scenarios exist for this imaginary perfect druid. No one plays perfectly or even close to perfectly enough to always be able to shred and then mangle if he can't. There's many a time when I've noobed it up when I hit my shred and then dodged some mechanic only to realize my spell didn't go off and I energed capped like a boss while I wasn't paying attention. I'm not trying to say you suck, I'm saying that we all suck and it's ridiculous to assume perfect play. I'm one of the top dps in one of the top guilds, and if you care to examine any of the kill videos linked in my sig, you'll see that I still make rotational errors at an atrocious rate. For example, on our first Garajal kill which was nothing more than a pure 6 minute patchwerk, I think I counted 35 rotational errors that I committed. Get into something more complex like Will or Sha? I'm thinking literally hundreds of mistakes over the course of the kill.

What it comes down to is that there is no measurable difference whether you use mangle or shred. Shred has some benefits over mangle. Mangle has some benefits over shred. These benefits are both somewhat intangible so you can pick whether you like a "get behind the target" alert or a "I can dps from whichever way I'm facing" advantage. Or heck, interweave both. (I happen to be of the persuasion that aside from fights with no secondary targets - like 3/16? this tier - mangle is a real-world dps increase.)

If you need a glyph slot and don't want to use shred, mangle is perfectly fine.

[dancm]

So, in my equation it's now....47.5k short, though I did admittedly forget about what the extra combo points would do.

37.5k

8*12.5=100
100-62.5=37.5

[Hyve]

Your main problem is you've got Disenchant on 1, Enchant on 2 & Alchemy on 3! These are not DPS abilities my friend!

[Dysheki]

I think after all of the years where people were ridiculed for suggesting mangle over shred has really gotten people to scoff at the idea and not really even entertain it.

Personally I love using mangle when I know I'll be running into a situation where I'll need combo points and won't have the energy to sustain what I'll need with shred. Being able to use that finisher a second or two quicker can be more than enough reason to allow for mangle usage.

[baller1308]

I think after all of the years where people were ridiculed for suggesting mangle over shred has really gotten people to scoff at the idea and not really even entertain it.

Personally I love using mangle when I know I'll be running into a situation where I'll need combo points and won't have the energy to sustain what I'll need with shred. Being able to use that finisher a second or two quicker can be more than enough reason to allow for mangle usage.

Ok, but you shouldn't replace mangle with shred and just mangle the bosses the entire time.

[Deleted]

I find it painfully amusing that Blizzard still requires feral to have a positional requirement but continues to put spinning bosses in every instance.

Every single dps (or indeed class) has to move around in order to get a good position or they suffer from some other effect that could potetially ruin thier dps (pets dying, wind up time on the damage, timing on cds a.s.o.). Besides all melee should be standing behind the boss to get optimal dps. As such feral is not a class that has an especially hard time if that is what you are implying.

[teddabear]

Every single dps (or indeed class) has to move around in order to get a good position or they suffer from some other effect that could potetially ruin thier dps (pets dying, wind up time on the damage, timing on cds a.s.o.). Besides all melee should be standing behind the boss to get optimal dps. As such feral is not a class that has an especially hard time if that is what you are implying.

Nobody said other classes aren't effected, the question is "is feral unduly penalized". If you don't believe Feral has a history of being unfairly penalized when they can't shred then dig up some old parses from Kologarn. I could name a lot of other bosses but that one should make it blatantly clear. Every spec has different mechanics but no other spec has ever had the drop in DPS that Feral has had when unable to Shred. At this point there seems to be some debate. Some are saying Mangle has been buffed to be just as good as shred which begs the question why is their a Shred glyph, others are saying Shred is still better. I would like to know which is accurate because the Shred glyph is a Major glyph and I could put that slot to very good use.

[Regen]

Nobody said other classes aren't effected, the question is "is feral unduly penalized". If you don't believe Feral has a history of being unfairly penalized when they can't shred then dig up some old parses from Kologarn. I could name a lot of other bosses but that one should make it blatantly clear. Every spec has different mechanics but no other spec has ever had the drop in DPS that Feral has had when unable to Shred. At this point there seems to be some debate. Some are saying Mangle has been buffed to be just as good as shred which begs the question why is their a Shred glyph, others are saying Shred is still better. I would like to know which is accurate because the Shred glyph is a Major glyph and I could put that slot to very good use.

The difference between the two assuming an inhuman level of perfect play appears to be less than 0.1% as Agixx and Kaiadam have pointed out. Agixx is a high ranking Druid that has put A LOT of effort into the feral community over time and Kaiadam is also an excellent Druid (easily verified by clicking his sig and watching any number of those videos, or checking out WoL - top 50 feral on many MoP Heroic bosses). I was one of those you mentioned saying to shred, but that's an old habit forged over many years of the things you've pointed out, but nowadays, it's not as serious as it was. This part is me admitting I was wrong and taking back my previous statements and issuing an apology.


That said, if you really feel the need to free up that glyph slot - do it, and just mangle when you're in a situation where you would have been utilizing the glyph.