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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Karokol View Post
    Forgive me if I am being obtuse.. but where exactly in that article does it mention vengeance? The only mention of it is peripheral: "This is sometimes taken to mean that justice involves seeking vengeance on behalf of the aggrieved party, or society as a whole." You could argue that the two have overlaps, and that they are two ways to reach the same overall goal (to right wrongs)... but they are not one in the same, and you can find mentions of this difference going back thousands of years.
    I'm really not sure how you don't see that Vengeance and Retribution are synonyms. Even Merriam Webster thinks so.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 10:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by peggleftw View Post
    now thats a little harsh dont ya think?
    I don't care what anyone says, some British food is fucking good.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    How is it naive? Someone misinterpreting what is written in the report is hardly my fault, is it?
    No, its your fault for reading "jockeying with another car at high speeds" as "not racing". It might not have been racing in the purest sense. It could have been playing chicken, or some other form of reckless car game. Regardless, I used the term racing loosely to denote high speed reckless driving in tandem with another vehicle.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by geewhiz80 View Post
    So wait? Thievery is worse than manslaughter? When did this happen?
    I see you don't know how to read, or maybe you just fail at comprehension. I said he wasn't committing a FELONY.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    since the article doesn't say I'd rather not assume, and if I did assume, I probably wouldn't do it just to push my agenda
    http://www.speedingfinesuk.co.uk/spe...guidelines.htm

    "What are the Court sentencing guidelines / fine levels?

    The punishments imposed by the Courts are set by the sentencing guidelines based on the severity of the offence, the Defendant's past record, mitigation and any other circumstances that the Court feels should be taken into account. Whilst the Court receives suggested guidelines for each offence, the final outcome is entirely at the Court's discretion.

    Punishments can range from 3 points and £60 fine to disqualification and a fine of £2,500."

    http://www.speedingfinesuk.co.uk/spe..._penalties.htm

    "I accept the allegation in full but can I avoid a speeding fine?

    Yes. For very minor breaches, you may be given the option to attend a speed awareness course. You cannot demand this entitlement. It is at the discretion of the Police but if it is offered, attendance will prevent penalty points, although you will have to pay for the course itself."

    if you want to call the speed awareness course option rehabilitation its completely an option to avoid other penalties. these classes consist of a class of people watching videos and/or being lectured by some person w/ no counseling experience. there may be a quiz at the end but you are paying them to go through this class they aren't going to fail you. you basically get nothing from these classes except you don't get the points on your license and apparently in the uk you can avoid the fine too.

    there is a chance he actually went to one of these classes and my assumption is wrong. but either way it would have been voluntary and not forced rehabilitation. and its rehabilitation w/ the intent to service as many people at once as possible and not the intent of rehabilitation to help them learn their mistakes.
    Last edited by syn1k; 2013-02-28 at 10:08 PM. Reason: grammar

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Vengeance isn't a bad thing.
    It certainly can make you feel good.

    So does cocaine.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    What type of punishment do you want exactly? I mean it's manslaughter but it wasn't done purposefully.
    What do you mean "it wasn't done purposefully" ?? No body forced those drivers to get drunk and drive their cars... they chose to get drunk and drive, knowing they weren't capable of making such decisions...

    It would be different if they hadn't been drunk, accidents happen some times... but these were not accidents.

    So yeah, drunk drivers killing people, deserve waaaaaay much more than eight months in prision.-

  7. #247
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    No, its your fault for reading "jockeying with another car at high speeds" as "not racing". It might not have been racing in the purest sense. It could have been playing chicken, or some other form of reckless car game. Regardless, I used the term racing loosely to denote high speed reckless driving in tandem with another vehicle.
    So your guess as to what happened is better than the conclusion reached by the police investigation and the statements of eye witnesses?

    The other driver was cleared of doing anything wrong, in fact the other car isn't even mentioned at the site of the accident - read the report again, the jockeying happened on a different road.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm really not sure how you don't see that Vengeance and Retribution are synonyms. Even Merriam Webster thinks so.
    A thesaurus is not meant to establish absolute similarities; it is meant to list analogies, which are far more abstract. As I said, they overlap in many ways, and are connected enough that they are similar. Therefore, a thesaurus is going to reference one to the other.

    But, as you have logically accepted that the thesaurus is a valid reference in this matter, I shall reciprocate with the same source.
    http://thesaurus.com/browse/justice#visualthesaurus

    "Notes: revenge is personal and justice is societal"
    Under the main entry for "Justice."

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Moadar View Post
    So you want to "better" people that do terrible things and let them go on to happy lives, ok. What do you want to do for the victims and the families that have have lost loved ones? Or is your version of justice all in favor of the criminal?
    Wait seriously? Me wanting to better a murderer is bad? Wanting to make bad people productive members of society that won't do bad, is bad because it doesn't feed the vengeance the victims family wants? Are you fucking kidding?

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    So drunk drivers are as much criminals are murderers? Is this what we're coming to now? That's a horrible position to take honey. Did I say it makes it safe? What the hell is with you people adding positive light to my statements when I said nothing of the like.
    Does raise a question tho.

    Instead of pleading guilty to manslaughter to get a lower sentence, would it be better to plead driving drunk.

    Unless arrested and tested "fast" after the accident, proving he wasn't drunk would be difficult. Not like of nobody saw him drunk and hour before means everything, how long does it take to drink a few beers..
    ~Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.~
    ~Every damn thing you do in this life, you have to pay for.~

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Moinaldo View Post
    What do you mean "it wasn't done purposefully" ?? No body forced those drivers to get drunk and drive their cars... they chose to get drunk and drive, knowing they weren't capable of making such decisions...

    It would be different if they hadn't been drunk, accidents happen some times... but these were not accidents.

    So yeah, drunk drivers killing people, deserve waaaaaay much more than eight months in prision.-
    The killings were done purposefully?

  12. #252
    The Undying Kalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by syn1k View Post
    Snip
    His previous speeding conviction resulted in a £75 fine and 6 points (not the usual 3 due to the length he'd had his licence for).

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    So your guess as to what happened is better than the conclusion reached by the police investigation and the statements of eye witnesses?
    I trust what is written by the BCC more than what is reported by entertainment tabloids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    The other driver was cleared of doing anything wrong, in fact the other car isn't even mentioned at the site of the accident - read the report again, the jockeying happened on a different road.
    BBC - Moments before the crash, the defendant had been "jockeying" and "playing games" with a friend in a Volkswagen Golf along a nearby dual carriageway, the jury was told.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Wait seriously? Me wanting to better a murderer is bad? Wanting to make bad people productive members of society that won't do bad, is bad because it doesn't feed the vengeance the victims family wants? Are you fucking kidding?
    Answer the question. What are you going to do for the victims? Or do they just get to suffer while a pos reaps the benefits of killing their loved ones?

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    The BBC makes no mention of racing, that is an interpretation on your part.

    Speed is not a requirement of jockeying...you can do it in a slow moving queue.

  16. #256
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Question, what should the purpose of the justice system be?

    a) rehabilitate
    or
    b) vengeance
    c) Keep society at large safe.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Moadar View Post
    Answer the question. What are you going to do for the victims? Or do they just get to suffer while a pos reaps the benefits of killing their loved ones?
    Nothing needs to be done for the victims family. There is a court case and we try to make the best of a bad situation by jailing, but focusing on rehabilitating the criminal.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    The BBC makes no mention of racing, that is an interpretation on your part.

    Speed is not a requirement of jockeying...you can do it in a slow moving queue.
    So, he wasn't necessarily racing (in the purest sense). He was still driving exceptionally recklessly at high speeds. I don't see how this changes anything.

  19. #259
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    I like how Europeans always like to wave around how they're superior to the US, but no evidence is used to support the stance. Every once in awhile, there are some numbers dug up in favor of Europe, but the poster always ignores all of confounding factors.
    It's usually in repsonse to people from the USA doing exactly the same thing. All you can do is not get dragged in to the 'who has the bestest country' contest if you acknowledge that both sides of the argument have the same problems.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    For drunk driving, I want to see them get a minimum of 10 years.
    I've never driven drunk, but I was given a DUI for working on my automobile right outside my house while I was buzzed. There was no driving, but the keys were in the ignition. Obviously, I wasn't even in the car. Should I go to prison for 10 years? Am I a criminal?

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