1. #2241
    I generally have sympathy for GC and the devs, but he should really just get off Twitter. Half the time it sounds like he's provoking people on purpose.

    I think part of it is that he's giving an explanation for a change, not going over their whole design process. Kind of like how everyone took the hybrid tax as the overriding design philosophy when he was just giving a simple truism. He's arguing for why Sac got nerfed and you can't really read much past that.

    The overarching theme, though, is that the devs can never put themselves into a position where the players can take data or argument and demand a change so GC is going to blow smoke even if you try to use his own arguments against them.
    Your comments are duly noted and ignored.
    I punch a hobo every time someone says 'it's not a rotation it's a priority list lol'.

  2. #2242
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.

    As bad as Protectors might be, I don't think there will ever be a fight as bad as Alysrazor which is the big reason and prime example people asked for Sac in the first place. There's nothing to stop you picking up Sac for those such encounters.

    I think GC has said more than once he finds Twitter too limited, but that the alternative of the forums not limited enough.
    Still it baffles the mind that after 8 years pets cannot move with their master in the Z plane, it feels like I'm playing a 2D game with a 3D skin. Any fight that is not fought on a flat plane and we're pretty much screwed, why should there be an inconvenience other than micromanaging for using a pet, I never understood that. They want us to use pets, but they offer very little other than frustration due to poor AI coding (pathing issues, X/Y plane movement only, despawning). Also their survivability has been an issue (f.ex Al'akir) where you have raid wide boss abilities which are not classified as aoe so pets do not benefit from their innate damage reduction.
    Last edited by Milmo; 2013-03-02 at 10:14 PM.

  3. #2243
    Question on modifying simc code. What is the proper way to delay a cd that is typically 2 minutes to be used every 3 minutes instead?

    i.e actions+=/power_infusion,if=talent.power_infusion.enabled but I would want that to be at 3 minutes (dark soul+zerk)

    Quote Originally Posted by Milmo View Post
    Still it baffles the mind that after 8 years pets cannot move with their master in the Y plane
    Nitpicking, but in game, it would be the z axis not y ^^

  4. #2244
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    again: nobody (but me) is complaining about the nerf Shadowburn and fel flame ... nobody noticed it, or nobody uses in pvp like me? A nerf without compensation and without reason is always bad. Maybe GC not noticed the nerf in these skills (I hope)
    Not exactly. A nerf without compensation is just that. A nerf. A nerf with compensation is not necessarily a nerf then. If nerfs were always given with compensation, then classes at the top would stay at the top. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and the reasons, if not given, will just be determined by the playerbase. Hell, sometimes even when they give a reason, people just deny it and come up with their own.

    People are upset in part because Sac gave better DPS for less effort, and admittedly it did circumvent potential pet bugs. We still have Sac as an option though if an encounter is incredibly pet-unfriendly, so much so that nerfed GSac will outdo GoSup.

    One thing that bothers me about all these complaints is that people are acting like it's gamebreaking to the class that we're losing a talent as a clear and most competitive option. We made it for the majority of the game using pets and we survived, we'll survive again. We went a tier with Sac being so clear a winner that locks were considered bad for not taking it, which went directly against the intent of the new talent system. Now we'll have more of a balance with GoSac/GoSup, and GoServ if you need that 2min burst.

  5. #2245
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzyo View Post
    Question on modifying simc code. What is the proper way to delay a cd that is typically 2 minutes to be used every 3 minutes instead?

    i.e actions+=/power_infusion,if=talent.power_infusion.enabled but I would want that to be at 3 minutes (dark soul+zerk)
    Code:
    actions+=/Beserking
    actions+=/Dark_Soul,sync=Beserking
    the sync command basically is the same as

    Code:
    actions+=/Dark_Soul,if=cooldown.beserking.up
    It will only allow the use of that action while the spell linked to it by sync is off cooldown.

  6. #2246
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I presume I'm Group B, but it seems odd that people are happy to pick up KJC for convenience over AV's pure damage, but not Sac for convenience over pets' damage.

    As bad as Protectors might be, I don't think there will ever be a fight as bad as Alysrazor which is the big reason and prime example people asked for Sac in the first place. There's nothing to stop you picking up Sac for those such encounters.

    I think GC has said more than once he finds Twitter too limited, but that the alternative of the forums not limited enough.
    That's why KjC needs to be deleted in my opinion. The talent has no real place in current WoW, unless they do a major revamp. But that could be said about the whole new talent system tbh...

  7. #2247
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    That's why KjC needs to be deleted in my opinion. The talent has no real place in current WoW, unless they do a major revamp. But that could be said about the whole new talent system tbh...
    Be careful, grumpy PvP'ers might get upset and tell you KJC is the only thing making Warlocks viable in arenas. We can't question terrible design with the risk of one more season not dominated by Warlock comps.

  8. #2248
    The Patient Kaizers's Avatar
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    KJ is fine, not sure why people don't want to cast and move.

  9. #2249
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Not exactly. A nerf without compensation is just that. A nerf. A nerf with compensation is not necessarily a nerf then. If nerfs were always given with compensation, then classes at the top would stay at the top. Sometimes nerfs are needed, and the reasons, if not given, will just be determined by the playerbase. Hell, sometimes even when they give a reason, people just deny it and come up with their own.

    People are upset in part because Sac gave better DPS for less effort, and admittedly it did circumvent potential pet bugs. We still have Sac as an option though if an encounter is incredibly pet-unfriendly, so much so that nerfed GSac will outdo GoSup.

    One thing that bothers me about all these complaints is that people are acting like it's gamebreaking to the class that we're losing a talent as a clear and most competitive option. We made it for the majority of the game using pets and we survived, we'll survive again. We went a tier with Sac being so clear a winner that locks were considered bad for not taking it, which went directly against the intent of the new talent system. Now we'll have more of a balance with GoSac/GoSup, and GoServ if you need that 2min burst.
    Please read what GC wrote and what I wrote.
    he said he was nerfing GoSac to prevent it being a mandatory talent. So what the hell does that have to do with nerfing fel flame and shadowburn??
    It makes no sense ...
    Read before you write something is a good way to be polite.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 11:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    That's why KjC needs to be deleted in my opinion. The talent has no real place in current WoW, unless they do a major revamp. But that could be said about the whole new talent system tbh...
    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  10. #2250
    Deleted
    I like KJC but there are some fights where even if it's supposed to be viable, I personally disable it because the slow debuff is becoming an issue, such as Zor'lok or spirit kings. I don't think it needs tuning. It's good like it is right now. Good but not so great if you don't take care.

  11. #2251
    Deleted
    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    Well if you make all ranged classes able to move and dps, you need to give all melee classes the ability to do roughly equivalent damage at 30+ yards as they would do in melee. Thats the thing, melee get hampered by having to be near the target, ranged have to be more stationary to make up for their range to melees relative mobility advantage. If ranged can just pew on the move the why shoudlnt melee have their handicaps removed? Barring some change in the fundamental mechanics of the game thats an important distinction really as opposed to just removing that restriction from ranged.

    EDIT: As an example take garalon. In theory the pheremones should penalise everyone roughly equally. Melee cant do bugger all if they have to kite (typically on heroic depending on your raid comp), but range should be hampered by near constant movement because of the spawning zones even if they can do a bit more than melee would be able to. But as a warlock i am basically unaffected on that fight with kjc. The pheremone mechanic is easily one of the most distracting mechanics imaginable to neuter ranged dps. But with movement no longer a penalty ranged become significantly better than melee. In such a situation melee would HAVE to deal significantly more damage than ranged to make up for the limitations on them. So as much as I do enjoy KJC, I can see why its a damaging precedent.
    Last edited by mmocf77e0ade01; 2013-03-03 at 12:12 AM.

  12. #2252
    Why hate on KJC? It makes the game more dynamic, is it overpowered... maybe. Perhaps it should work with filler only and no snare? Warlock has so many junk talents right now imo. In the sense that they all seemed really cool and would draw more people to playing warlock in beta, but inherently most abilities were too much and would result in most getting gutted only to be useless leaving more obvious choices which is why they changed the other talent system that didn't work out so well.

    Remember how powerful AMV was in beta, it sounded cool but promoted people standing in bad for big damage. Blood fear, sounds GREAT even though our view on instant cc is that it shouldn't be in the game. Put in sac, some warlocks want it because some of our boss designs are horrible for pets so instead of fixing pets we'll give them this... even though we think warlocks should be using pets.

    Speaks of poor foresight, I think warlocks will be ok for 5.2 most likely as demo. At this point i'd like to see a revamp of lvl 90 talents, make sac viable for at least one spec or just delete it and fix pathing/buff/scaling for pets. Take away some of the hp penalties and make them give you reduced healing or something... this all probably won't be addressed till next expac but for the time being REDUCE THE GODDAMN SOUL FIRE COST FOR DEMO it's terrible... I mean it. Oh and plz make void ray have a wider radius it's the most dumb thing ever.

  13. #2253
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Be careful, grumpy PvP'ers might get upset and tell you KJC is the only thing making Warlocks viable in arenas. We can't question terrible design with the risk of one more season not dominated by Warlock comps.
    We're already screwed with the loss of Blood Fear (although needed) without any real compensation. What is there more to lose? Although a smart move would be you know, to buff warlocks in a proper way without putting in cheesy mechanics.

  14. #2254
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gohzerlock View Post
    Why hate on KJC? It makes the game more dynamic, is it overpowered... maybe. Perhaps it should work with filler only and no snare?
    If it was a mana cost increase to your spells as opposed to a snare it would work better I think. Keep its curent form as a debuff so if you stutter move you get lumped with the debuff for longer than you'd want. Make it more of a 'I NEED to be able to move and do dps' as opposed to 'lol i can move and dps' and the mana penalty if properly balanced would lead to a lot more lifetapping if you use it inappropriately. Its the only concievable way I could see it being balanced tbh. Well you could have it working similar to burning rush, move and lose hp, but i'd just prefer a mana drain personally.

  15. #2255
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.

  16. #2256
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.
    I think you were a little too far in your ramblings... nobody ever conjectured that, you're speculating a lot and for no reason. I'd really like to see all classes moving while casting spells and smaller casting time. GW2 is a fantastic example; unfortunate that ArenaNet has not exploited the full potential of the game. But Blizzard can do it with WOW. Good stuff from other games can and should be exploited and trash discarded.

    Going back to my question: why they nerfed Fel Flame and Shadowburn? Give me one good reason and I shut up.
    Ghostcrawler is gone, time to celebrate!

  17. #2257
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    I'm a little unnerved by Ghostcrawler's tweet on Sacrifice. This was in response to someone suggesting GoSac should equal pet damage:



    https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...47553145614339

    So it seems I was right about what I posted earlier; they want to make Sacrifice unviable for serious raids/PVP in all but the most niche encounters. I'd rather they just remove it to be honest, and I expect they will next expansion.

    Lets be honest here, Sacrifice is just a bad idea and there's no way to balance it properly.
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.

  18. #2258
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Yes and the next person will ask for casting without direct facing line of sight, because turning around sucks and not having it is a better change for the game. Then casting will be too much of a hurdle because honestly, who wants to WAIT for an ability to activate? Go, go instants! Plus if you give that much mobility to casters then you increase that of melee, and we end up with the same arm race that we have right now with CC.
    Do you think uninterupptable instant cast spells are fine to use while moving? All castable spells while moving today does is give you bit more damage and utility while making you vulnerable to interuppts. You could make a lot of instants have a cast time if everyone could cast and move and perhaps decrease range in pvp or something.

    I don't really care either way personally, but I don't see how it would be so terrible with a bit of design rework (other than losing some of the cast/instant/movement contrast, which I really like, and there would have to be some new interesting mechanic for casters in PVE to pay attention to if maximizing movement will be gone)
    Last edited by Micke; 2013-03-03 at 03:03 AM.

  19. #2259
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Starfighter View Post
    Why? if you're looking at it that way pets weren't viable for affliction in T14. Nobody seemed to cry about that. He's right. Sac is a big convenience since you don't have a pet to manage. So there should be a cost for that convenience. Kind of like the glyph of everlasting affliction. We get new pets, and nobody really uses them outside of demo and pvp.
    If Sacrifice is supposed to be punished for making life easier for Warlocks, it should be punished at a comparable rate to what you're gaining.....which is to say it should barely be punished at all.

    It's not hard to bind your pet attacks and if someone can't manage that there's always the assist function. Pet management isn't rocket science. Why is it suddenly being treated this way?
    Last edited by PickleballAce; 2013-03-03 at 03:14 AM.

  20. #2260
    Quote Originally Posted by Biruta View Post
    Please read what GC wrote and what I wrote.
    he said he was nerfing GoSac to prevent it being a mandatory talent. So what the hell does that have to do with nerfing fel flame and shadowburn??
    It makes no sense ...
    Read before you write something is a good way to be polite.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 11:32 PM ----------



    I completely disagree and go further: I think all (I said ALL) classes should cast while walking. The game would be much more versatile and dynamic.
    How were FF and SB nerfed, you mean they benefited from GoSac which was nerfed? If so, then ok, what's the big problem? Or was it a stealth nerf or one I missed? And if you mean the proposed SB fix to make it not generate an extra ember, they said they would not fix that, though admittedly it doesn't generate an extra one on the PTR. Ultimately, I thought we were mainly discussing the nerf to GoSac, which was done to make it more of a niche talent, definitely not mandatory anymore. I don't see what a FF and SB nerf has to do with that.

    It's the fault of the nature of the playerbase that we try to make cookie-cutter specs. GoSac no longer giving highest theoretical DPS? So it's useless and we're saddled with pathetic pet AI, GG FOR KILLING US BLIZZ!

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