Harder Content = Better?

[nekobaka]

If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.

I have seen high population servers with strong PuG communities that was doing 4-5 bosses in vaults before HoF was released. The first week there was PuGs that downed three bosses. MSV was more mechanics oriented until the last two bosses. The third boss required 40k DPS while experienced raiders was already pulling 50k DPS. Then you have Terrace which mechanically is among the easiest raid with PuGs even doing the elite mode and is more about performance with the last boss being almost exclusively a performance test which is understandable for an end boss like the T11 bosses was like.

The performance tuning is going to be more forgiving next tier for normal mode. Players will still have to dodge fire though and I like that. Mechanics should mean something or otherwise why have them at all.

I see gems, enchants, and reforging as common practice when it comes to normal modes. Even in WotLK it was not uncommon to see players get things enchanted and gemmed during a raid or a player just not using a new item because they know it will not be better without the enchants and gems. A lot of players do flask as well. If they use pots I have no clue. I really cannot fathom not doing these things in normal mode unless I am doing a raid that is farmed or old.

LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).

LK HC, RS 3d was hard, ruby sanctum was hard and EoE definitely wasn't a faceroll.

But yes, it was tuned reasonably because it was harder. And like you are saying raids were puggable towards the end, and this is what people are whining about them not being here early on in MoP. One guy in this thread has several times mentioned that he cannot make a pug team and just go clear MV because it's overtuned (which it isn't).

Most of the posters I saw complaining about Cata raiding being hard did not even clear ICC and I even spotted those who did not clear Naxx with a lot of 8-10 bosses downed. Frankly WotLK raiding was too hard for them as well. These players even forgot about the one shot mechanics in WotLK launch heroics and the multitude of complaints about multi hour long heroic runs. Obviously most of these posters in WotLK was laughed at because we came from BC where most of the mechanics was nothing new to a large portion of the player base and was not cry babies that rage quiet after a wipe.

[Vorondil]

Raiding these days is much more enjoyable from a gamer's perspective due to encounters being harder mechanics-wise and dpsrequirements being a real thing without the dps being limited by your tank's aggro, therefor eliminating the importance of a dps all together.
As a wow-community-social-gamer however Vanilla might have been better since you required to group up from the start (levelling through elite quests/dungeons/farming gear/...) all without the current LF-tools.
Vanilla fights weren't as much fun as the bosses from these days, sure they somehow might've felt more epic cause you couldn't do them on LFR, but that's why we currently have Ra-den for example, I wish they'd add a boss like this every raidcontent-patch.

[Deleted]

If it was normal difficulty, MSV would be pugable by people with normal (that's average) dps and hps.

That means 20-30k hps and 40-60k dps, few if any gems or chants, very little reforging and standing in fire half the time.

Aside from obtuse tactics, the current "normal" raids require excellent performance + gems/chants/reforging to get anywhere at all.

Either the playerbase hasn't been shown how to play or create a character properly (bad design) or the raids are overtuned for the playerbases real skill level (bad design) either way, the current raid system is bad design.

Sry but the content for people who do not gem, enchant, reforge and stand in the fire half the time is LFR.

Average player is not entitled to succed in normal mode just because he pays 13$ a month.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 02:00 PM ----------

Raiding these days is much more enjoyable from a gamer's perspective due to encounters being harder mechanics-wise and dpsrequirements being a real thing without the dps being limited by your tank's aggro, therefor eliminating the importance of a dps all together.
As a wow-community-social-gamer however Vanilla might have been better since you required to group up from the start (levelling through elite quests/dungeons/farming gear/...) all without the current LF-tools.
Vanilla fights weren't as much fun as the bosses from these days, sure they somehow might've felt more epic cause you couldn't do them on LFR, but that's why we currently have Ra-den for example, I wish they'd add a boss like this every raidcontent-patch.

Yes from a social perspective vanilla till wrath was simply better. You had to be social to be able to see the end game content. Now a days because of convenience I do not have to socialise at all to see it. But because that I do not have to socialise, I end up not socialising at all, leading to the concequens that WoW ends up being a single player game and not an mmo.