Rogue's not popular because they can't Stunlock/insta kill people.

[cFortyfive]

Rogues weren't any kind of "guaranteed pvp victory" in vanilla. There were ways to exploit the CC system- for instance, blind was absolutely untrinketable (though it was dispellable), and you could prep into a second one, which for a decent part of the game, didn't even have DR with anything, including itself- in part because it was considered "an item". There were more broken things than this, but rogues were paper fragile (even moreso than today) and had the alpha strike in a game that largely didn't offer gear, so many undergears complained a lot- because they couldn't see the rogue coming, mostly.

Really depends on what you would define as guaranteed pvp victory as I suppose most people were actually rolling them to deal with those people you describe and not with "honorable" duels against fully decked warriors and retpaladins for instance. I don't really think it is too far fetched that the end of ganking culture actually had effects on undead rogue population.

[Deleted]

People didn't suddenly stop playing mages when they could no longer: polymorph, 2*trinket, AP, fireball, PoM, Pyroblast and 2-shot most other classes. As I said earlier, I only just recently got a Rogue char to max level, and I won't say I regret it, the levelling has been interesting, and the character can still be used for the Tiller's Farm, but there's absolutely no point in gearing it for dungeons/raids when I already have a DK.

[Deleted]

The fact is that a great deal of people DID play rogues specifically because they were so good at ganking and griefing without the other player being able to retaliate. That is undeniable.

As soon as the balance was tipped slightly less in their favour many people abandoned the class partly because they didn't know how to kill people the "proper way" and partly because they were no longer so grossly overpowered.

It's basically just the "flavour of the month syndrome".

This.

Rogues had this as character through vanilla and a bit less during TBC but still. After that the class got changed abit and did not have the characteristics that they were so well known for and being easy to just pick people off with - thats when the player rate drops and as Netherspark says, its was basicly just a FOTM class for so long people got used to it.

[Strakha]

It's a class designed around stealth and opportunity, not making others miserable. And the FOTM-bullshit probably won't hold this time around, seeing as they stripped us of our crit talents (for one).

5.2 won't change much either. Though it does amuse me seeing warriors all over, crying, saying they'll be the worst melee.
Sorry, that spot's still mine.

I don't think anyone will disagree that rogues are still the worst melee in a PVE environment. "Stealth and opportunity" just means ganking, if rogues don't have good scaling they are just pests that serve to assist others to help them kill in PVP, if they scale well then they can kill on their own and get back to their "opportunistic ways" see: ganking.

[Deleted]

I think that the main reason is that gameplay wise other classes have been modernised in their playstyles from what they were and rogues feel antiquated and too restrictive.

For me the biggest thing I dislike about playing a rogue compared to any other melee is the restrictive nature of combo points. Any other melee can target swap as the situation requires and react quickly except the rogue which makes it feel clunky. (certainly doesn't feel agile like its portrayed as)

Combos should be on the rogue not the target imo, and they need to take the focus away from self buffing and passive damage.

[tankbug]

I think that GC has a point here, and that might be a huge factor in the loss of popularity of the class. For my part, it's different. I made my rogue in vanilla at a time when I needed to get by elite mobs roaming tunnels etc of precious mining veins, and it was also considered to be a very strong damage dealer. Back in those days, my warrior had to heal quite often when killings mobs, which was a pain in the ass. That was also an argument for playing the rogue, as they could go on for a much longer time. I never attempted to PVPmuch with it, but I have done a fair share of dungeons and a few raids with it. But their gear didn't look as cool, their aoe sucked etc. In the end, I have found out that I find the PVE-instance concept of them boring. So that's why I prefer every other melee class.

[Deleted]

Well, i think perhaps it is because people switch to whatever class is the best. I have friend who switches classes all the freaking time. Once his class is not the OP anymore, he would switch and claim that the warrior has always been his main, though he had just used a bot to lvl it to max and gain every piece of setpiece or epicgear. He played the rogue when they were quite imba in cata, and now switched to warrior and hunter in MoP.
I stick with the rogue, because it has always been my main and i like the playstyle. I don't care if i get nerfed a bit and not the best class anymore, because i believe it is a matter of skill in many casses (Though sometimes it cannot ofc, due to imba class and imba gear).

[Deleted]

Well, i think perhaps it is because people switch to whatever class is the best. I have friend who switches classes all the freaking time. Once his class is not the OP anymore, he would switch and claim that the warrior has always been his main, though he had just used a bot to lvl it to max and gain every piece of setpiece or epicgear. He played the rogue when they were quite imba in cata, and now switched to warrior and hunter in MoP.
I stick with the rogue, because it has always been my main and i like the playstyle. I don't care if i get nerfed a bit and not the best class anymore, because i believe it is a matter of skill in many casses (Though sometimes it cannot ofc, due to imba class and imba gear).

Sure, rogue representation suffers from FOTM bandwaggonners jumping ship at the first sign of a nerf, but the wild oscillations in population from when they are FOTM to when they are not suggests that they is something about the class which is wrong . Ferals had a reputation for being OP in 4.2, justified or not, and it seemed as if half the population were druids during that patch, but after the nerfs druid or even feral population did not plummet and that's because even without being "OP" or "FOTM" the class and the spec were still attractive to people. The fact that rogues are sometimes FOTM tells that Blizzard's quick, temporary fix to class design works; but it doesn't tell us why most of the people desert the class at the first sign of a nerf.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone will disagree that rogues are still the worst melee in a PVE environment. "Stealth and opportunity" just means ganking, if rogues don't have good scaling they are just pests that serve to assist others to help them kill in PVP, if they scale well then they can kill on their own and get back to their "opportunistic ways" see: ganking.

Cool. Lucky not everyone's as pessimistic and simpleminded as you are. Just because 'stealth and opportunity' simply equals ganking in your eyes, doesn't mean it does for everyone else.

[Justikhar]

Cool. Lucky not everyone's as pessimistic and simpleminded as you are. Just because 'stealth and opportunity' simply equals ganking in your eyes, doesn't mean it does for everyone else.

I'm not immediately inclined to say either of you are right or wrong per say .... but he did try to explain his reasoning. Taking by your response you disagree, what 'does' stealth and opportunity mean to you in a PVE environment? Or even if you don't like that phraseology, what is the core competencies of a rogue from a PVE perspective?

[Sivick]

According to Ghostcrawler anyway...



Does this mean that other classes are popular because they can guarantee kill people? Is he saying this was peoples ONLY atraction to Rogues and the point of the class? Rogue's always used to have an advantage from stealth but the actual windows in PVP history where "gank -> guaranteed kill" have been incredibly small, and at those times we tended to get murdered if we were caught out of stealth.

Maybe the sheer damage.. but the serious danger of being seen first compensating it really were some of the important parts of being a Rogue. Should we feel like we're stalking our prey rather than hiding from them until a good moment.

to be honest, this is the exact reason why i made my first rogue...

[Damax]

yeah I remember vanilla.

2k ambush, 2k backstab, 4 second wait while 100-200 white hits, 2k backstab, 4 second wait..... that's passive in your book? oO


@ Damax in T14 heroic content melees are actually better than ranges and most 10m raids go with 3 melees.

One tier LOL. I remember most other tiers would like to have a talk with you. Not only that but Rogue's the only pure dps MELEE and can't bandaid any other role (can't switch to tank like war/dk or to heal like sham should raid lose someone or need a third heal or tier is mostly made out of 1 tank fights so you need a melee that can switch to tank)

The real killer is the avaibility of melee vs range dmg. looking at realmpop 60% players can spec for melee dps and only 43% can spec range dps. 4 out of 5 healer's dps spec can be melee (2 of them have no choice) and all the tanks are melee dps also. 3 healer's can be range dps. 0 tank can be range. 11 melee spec, 12 range spec but 9 of them are tied to 3 classes which leads to class stacking which raids don't usually like

I'm thinking the rogue problem is not a problem but a bunch of problems combined into a super problem. I was thinking about stuff: Rogues doesn't have damaging abilities with a cooldown because they hurt too much like mindblast or colossus smash.

Rogue's feel maintenancy. keep up slice and dice buff, keep up rupture, then smash face. if you've got to heal yourself keep up recuperate.

Pallys now need to keep up inquisition and alot of them complained about it as they'd rather straight smash face and see numbers right away. warriors, dk are popular and they are about smashing face now and not Soon (tm) blizz

Feral are close to rogue but they have a huge difference, recuperate vs real heal. Same deal here. I need heal now instant cast healing touch feels better than I need healing soon (tm) blizzard waste 5 combo points lose lots of dmg for healing eventually.

People are impatient... waiting to get damage and healing is annoying. I am myself victim of it, but I do like my rogue because it can still kills mobs fast and stealth straight to quests objectives

[Ghostpanther]

I am agreeing with GC on something, that's not good. I guess that also means he's intentionally making Rogues OP in 5.2 to get the population back up. Which is a horrible way to balance a game.



It's 3s Warbinger into 4s Shockwave every 20s, and it uses our gap closer. 7/20, - gap closer, compare to kidney shot which is 6s by itself on a 20s CD, or Cheapshot 5s, into DR Kidney Shot 3s, into Paralytic Proc... Rogues still have a far better stun lock.

I donot think the buffs for rogues in 5.2 is going to make them OP. It is being done to help bring them up closer to some other classes who are OP.

My opinion on this discussion is the reason few play rogues now is because one of thier main class resources is not in good shape, namely energy regeneration in comparison to the energy cost of some skills. This was pointed out to GC in one of the discussions on the subject and he said basically." we donot want rogues to not have to pay attention to energy." Well, I also play a retri pally and a shadow priest and I hardly never pay any attention to thier mana. So his answer was a poor one.

[Sesshou]

Feral are close to rogue but they have a huge difference, recuperate vs real heal. Same deal here. I need heal now instant cast healing touch feels better than I need healing soon (tm) blizzard waste 5 combo points lose lots of dmg for healing eventually.

Honestly that last part (which wasn't your main point) I have had serious issue with recently. 5 CP is a huge dps loss, druids get a 0 dps loss heal when they use a finisher. Kidney shot does no damage so we give up a huge amount of damage to do it, but druid kidney shot actually does damage (now yeah its not a huge amount, but its something), shockwave / ret HoJ are essentially free. And until next patch, only energy interrupts have a cost. It is just really annoying that when I want to do something for utility, I lose a chunk of dps but in many cases, other melee don't.

[Damax]

I think one of the major reasons of rogue decline is the stagnation of its concept and the numerous Band-aid fixes.

In wotlk, rogues were too squishy to compete against other classes and they had too much downtime while leveling. and because mostly of the second reason they implemented Recuperate. Recuperate did its work and by cataclysm it already felt out dated and out played kind of like a chore. Recuperate in this day and age feels like a band aid gone wrong. Using it drops your dps DRASTICALLY from 70k you can go down to 50k for keeping it up! no other classes suffers so much even warriors (not like casting victory rush after each enemy dead is hard or waiting for 35% health) DPS DK's healing system is similar but they have many advantages that help them get groups specially in rbgs. To heal for 30% health over 30 second a rogue must use: 5 energy, 5 combo points and one global cooldown. if you don't cast it at 5 combo points it could cost you 30 energy and have a reduced duration... way too punishing.

other bandaid: relentless strikes which refunds 25 energy at a 20% chance per combo points bottle neck you into using 5 combo points only (because even 4 combo point is a gamble of precious energy) and if you don't have anticipation you risk wasting combo points while getting to 5. the best solution here would be to remove this garbage and reduce all the finishing moves by 25 energy.

Cata bandaid: redirect. Paladins got holy power, rogues can't switch target and their fix is a target switch every min... great... I just can't count anymore the times where a mob was gonna die, I had 5 combo points and 3 anticipation on it and my choice where: redirect but if its on cooldown use envenom and waste my 3 anticipation charge or use a non damaging finisher and keep the anticipation charge and hope they don't expire before I can use em up = annoying headache garanteed dps loss.

mop comes around and they ignore all feedback rogue community feels like poop and they give us a cooldown Shadowblade with no animation or very little while many classes get at least one flashy spell. our lv 90 talent are Shuriken toss (almost flashy) useless in pve and barely justifiable in pvp. Versatility a crappy fix to a crappy bandaid, people didn't take it, its so crappy and so meaning less that you could make redirect have no cooldown baseline, it would barely impact dps and it would make it redirect a much more reliable band-aid because right now often you use it once and try to use it again to switch target a few seconds later just to find out you are out of luck welcome back to tbc mr.rogue! Anticipation is new, unique and fun for the rotation but feels like something that should'ave been baselined too for that outdated combo point mechanics.

here are somethings I'd like to see: Recuperate as a combo builder or something else instead, Expose armor without energy cost/combo point cost or generation, versatility baseline (redirect is still a gcd and combo points are on target), Anticipation baseline (dreaming here) and a new lv 90 talents. Possibly something more than the current buff to smoke bomb to makes rogue wanted in pve raid groups

for cosmetics: I'd like shadowdance/shadow walk to make me become all black with only eyes glowing. I'd like shadow blades to turn my blades into shadow blades for real. Shuriken throw to look more like a FUUMA shuriken while the auto attacks turns into the crappy small shurikens. Maybe a fun spell like being able to jump 2x higher or farther (with spacebar)

I'm tempted to post this wall of text onto the official forums but my feeble english usually kills me over there ending in trolling attempts.

[Evi1Toad]

Since vanilla, what have rogues really gotten? We had backstab, sinister strike, eviscerate, slice and dice, premeditation, rupture. Sure, posions are in a spell and no longer have to be made. Sure, vanish no longer requires a reagent to cast. We really haven't gained much. People havent had a reason to play rogues since vanilla because it is pretty much the same. All the other classes have changed quite a bit since vanilla.

Rogues get to see their defining abilities handed out to other classes. Rogues get to see abilities that should have been for them given to other classes. Rogues get bandaids for a cough, sure its nice, but how will it help solve the problem?

[Stormspellz]

history proves him right, in pve rogues have always been lackluster in total rep even if pve they would be strong, but rogue population in terms of active players always spikes when they become dominate in pvp, s9-10 rogues were very strong but not auto gib burst out of stealth like they had in s11 and then everyone and their mom dusted off their rogue alt

Since vanilla, what have rogues really gotten? We had backstab, sinister strike, eviscerate, slice and dice, premeditation, rupture. Sure, posions are in a spell and no longer have to be made. Sure, vanish no longer requires a reagent to cast. We really haven't gained much. People havent had a reason to play rogues since vanilla because it is pretty much the same. All the other classes have changed quite a bit since vanilla.

Rogues get to see their defining abilities handed out to other classes. Rogues get to see abilities that should have been for them given to other classes. Rogues get bandaids for a cough, sure its nice, but how will it help solve the problem?

shadowdance, shadowstep, cloak?!?!

[Eazy]

Some people just don't know the difference between instant killing people and doing low damage.

I don't want new abilities, I just hate that every class got everything(stuns/CCs/New CDs).

[Speaknoevil]

Some people just don't know the difference between instant killing people and doing low damage.

I don't want new abilities, I just hate that every class got everything(stuns/CCs/New CDs).

They would have to give us a 70% snare, bonus crit to backstab, and better damage coefficients to our builders for us to do good(or)decent damage outside cooldowns.

Elusiveness should be part of recuperate, not feint.

[Evi1Toad]

They would have to give us a 70% snare, bonus crit to backstab, and better damage coefficients to our builders for us to do good(or)decent damage outside cooldowns.

Elusiveness should be part of recuperate, not feint.

Pretty sure they did all that in Cata... and we had it taken away. Improved recuperate was 6% I think, so feint is more used to counter burst than 6% over 25ish seconds. Recup got a little out of hand in Cata I think. It ticked for quite a bit and you could spam it with premed in stealth. Improved recup and fleet footed (thats the +20%heal one I believe) were a bit too amazing.

In 4.3 our damage was a bit too amazing, but we all knew it would go down a ton when we hit 90 and get the relatively low scaled gear, because it is how rogues work. We do mid-low pack to start an xpac and grow from there to high pack at the end. We scale extremely well with gear.