Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Biruta]

Ok, well perhaps they felt Shadowburn did enough damage, especially also with their intent to keep it as is with generating an extra ember for a kill. Fel Flame isn't intended to be high on damage I believe. The incinerate and conflagrate buffs seemed to be in response to the demand to boost Destro's PVE capabilities, not to directly offset the GoSac nerfs. A nerf to GoSac doesn't mean they need to buff every ability that was nerfed by GoSac, as the nerf was simply targeted at making the other talents more attractive.



While this may be true, there will be more opportunities to use GoSac than, say, the Glyph of Everlasting Affliction. GoSac will still be very useful for fights that just aren't pet-friendly, where the AI gets it killed or pets don't get some sort of damage buff. And I don't believe (could be wrong) that Sac's been nerfed to the point where it's downright useless. But either way, I don't think you can argue against their point that it was more convenience AND higher DPS for that talent.

1) they never said that Shadowburn was doing too much damage. Shadownurn has a small window of use, causes no problem of unbalance in pvp.
2) Fel Flame has always been a low damage skill, nerfing it makes no sense.

Look, I'm not crying just for being nerffed, just think some nerfs make no sense and GC answered with excessive sarcasm, becoming ironic.
I honestly never liked him. In my opinion he is a cancer inside Blizzard. Always very arrogant with jerks answers sometimes ... really, I do not like him.
But it seems he has several brides here in this forum. Criticizing GC is almost identical to criticize somebody's mother or cursing God.
This forum has changed a lot over the years, unfortunately for the worse. Any constructive criticism is immediately rejected by people who seem more someone from Blizzard's staff than players.
Thanks God we still have good players here to make up for it.

[xskarma]

But seriously, what the fuck is this community coming to when moving, managing pets, and managing mana are too hard and need removing, or talents to opt out of that are better than having to deal with them?

It's like every class does, we focus on 1 tiny thing of a much larger equation and moan about it, not fully acknowledging the bigger role in the game things play.

Pets are what we have and are bound to, that will never change, pet management should be part of what we do. It just in the quest for ever being equal to others and not disadvantaged compared to X class that we piss and moan about pets. I think most of us are fine with the idea of pets, just not with the extras it brings with it. I'm pretty sure though that every class has it's cross to bear where they are disadvantaged and are crying they should be equal to other classes while they are not.

We can come away from this in 2 ways. We can either decide that pet management is SO horrible that we won't do it again and reroll OR we can accept that it's part of the warlock class and adapt to the new situation.

In the end we know Blizz reads this and other forums, and a thread aptly named 5.2 discussion is sure to be read and reported to the people that need to know these things. I'm sure we've made our point here that we want pets to be less of a liability and a burden. I think in an ideal world where pets are equal in every way to not having pets, we'd prefer to have pets (most of us). So the thing Blizz just needs to do is get us as close to ideal as they can manage. I'm pretty sure they'll want to do that just as much as we do.

[Deleted]

It's like every class does, we focus on 1 tiny thing of a much larger equation and moan about it, not fully acknowledging the bigger role in the game things play.

Pets are what we have and are bound to, that will never change, pet management should be part of what we do. It just in the quest for ever being equal to others and not disadvantaged compared to X class that we piss and moan about pets. I think most of us are fine with the idea of pets, just not with the extras it brings with it. I'm pretty sure though that every class has it's cross to bear where they are disadvantaged and are crying they should be equal to other classes while they are not.

We can come away from this in 2 ways. We can either decide that pet management is SO horrible that we won't do it again and reroll OR we can accept that it's part of the warlock class and adapt to the new situation.

In the end we know Blizz reads this and other forums, and a thread aptly named 5.2 discussion is sure to be read and reported to the people that need to know these things. I'm sure we've made our point here that we want pets to be less of a liability and a burden. I think in an ideal world where pets are equal in every way to not having pets, we'd prefer to have pets (most of us). So the thing Blizz just needs to do is get us as close to ideal as they can manage. I'm pretty sure they'll want to do that just as much as we do.

Agreed, we've been going round in circles for the past dozen or so pages about this with different arguments back and forth. Really excited for patch to hit now and see where we stand after the dust has settled. If I'm forced to play with a pet at first then so be it.

[Deleted]

from what ive seen in traherne's streams when they did ptr heroic testing in ilvl 537 gear(scaled up to that) i can safely say that you dont need to worry about performance, its still as solid as it is now. saw him peaking at 320k dps during pulls as affliction with GoSup, and topping meters consistently or atleast in top 5, so i would say we will still do very well in 5.2 from what ive seen.

so as i wrote in a previous post, it does look like the nerfs to GoSac was more of a fix to affliction's scaling than blizz wanting us to use pets. we'll prolly need to use pets from the start of 5.2 to do proper dps but once we hit a certain ilvl we can go into GoSac without having to worry about a possible dps drop in comparison to GoSup, even GoServ looks like it will perform well for affliction.

[xskarma]

Ugh, this has the potential to lead to dozens of less well informed warlocks using the glyph and coming to the forums stating their earth shattering discovery that the top locks are doing it WRONG cause it's a dps loss for them.

I also don't think this is what Blizz had in mind when they made the glyph; making a glyph that will let you overextend a superior buffed dot for a gain. Ah well, time will tell if it's a real gain in actual fights, while getting (and reacting to) the actual trinket.

Kudos to Brusalk for thinking up this unintended use, btw.

[Deleted]

well they have added a fail safe to it, so that spriests wont get inifinite ticking dots, so im assuming that they have added that into it for us as well, which should make the glyph pointless to use as the trinket will only work on dots for 15/18 secs from what ve heard.

[Zinnin]

Ugh, this has the potential to lead to dozens of less well informed warlocks using the glyph and coming to the forums stating their earth shattering discovery that the top locks are doing it WRONG cause it's a dps loss for them.

I also don't think this is what Blizz had in mind when they made the glyph; making a glyph that will let you overextend a superior buffed dot for a gain. Ah well, time will tell if it's a real gain in actual fights, while getting (and reacting to) the actual trinket.

Kudos to Brusalk for thinking up this unintended use, btw.

Yep.....wierd gimicky talents and glyphs are always fun to explain.

[Medieve]

As for the results, The following are the average DPS done over 1 hour against a Raider's Training Dummy with the only equipped trinket being Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen (522).

Without Glyph: 86 735 DPS
With Glyph: 88 213 DPS

What's the timeline it takes to overcome the loss then? If it takes an hour-long encounter before the glyph pulls ahead, I don't think we'll find it very useful.

1) they never said that Shadowburn was doing too much damage. Shadownurn has a small window of use, causes no problem of unbalance in pvp.
2) Fel Flame has always been a low damage skill, nerfing it makes no sense.

I think you're looking at the Sac nerf a bit wrongly. Ideally, pet damage would equal or be greater than additional damage done by all abilities from Sac if Blizz balances as they would like to. The additional damage by spells purely depends how much the additional damage is and what spells it effects. Blizz seems to intend on having Sac boost most spells a set percentage, or not at all. There isn't variation within a spec between spells, it's all or nothing. The damage boost has been toned down with Sac, but it hasn't actually nerfed the spells, just the Sac bonus. Sac's interaction was nerfed with SB and FF, but the base spells are unchanged, in line with how Blizzard intends the Grim to work and where they want the overall numbers to be. You can say that Blizz nerfed Sac's interaction with SB and FF, but they didn't nerf SB or FF. The damage is still there, you just need proper pet play to bring it out, instead of it being neatly wrapped up in the abilities themselves.

[Kaizers]

Def playing demo on troll council.

[Teye]

Ugh, this has the potential to lead to dozens of less well informed warlocks using the glyph and coming to the forums stating their earth shattering discovery that the top locks are doing it WRONG cause it's a dps loss for them.

This is the worst part about Demonology getting buffed. The number of threads asking silly questions about Demo, or making wild assumptions about Demo are going to sky rocket. There's already been a few of them, and it isn't even live yet.

[Bonkura]

I have no problem with people asking noob questions, as long as they don't keep making new threads that will push down the good threads. This has been a problem on this forum for a long time if you ask me.

[Gohzerlock]

This is the worst part about Demonology getting buffed. The number of threads asking silly questions about Demo, or making wild assumptions about Demo are going to sky rocket. There's already been a few of them, and it isn't even live yet.

People who ask class questions on class forums are garbage. I do agree it's a pain for the good threads to get pushed though.

[Jessicka]

People who ask class questions on class forums are garbage. I do agree it's a pain for the good threads to get pushed though.

Have to say Xskarma is by and large actually doing a good job of merging those into the spec specific stickies to be fair.

[Teye]

My issue is the threads that ask a question that can be answered by simply reading the first page of the Demonology guide Zinnin wrote. If someone asks an in depth question that warrants its own thread, then I'm more than happy to help them. If its something as silly as asking how much Fury Doom costs, I get annoyed.

[weakdots]

My issue is the threads that ask a question that can be answered by simply reading the first page of the Demonology guide Zinnin wrote. If someone asks an in depth question that warrants its own thread, then I'm more than happy to help them. If its something as silly as asking how much Fury Doom costs, I get annoyed.

you post helpful information?


Infracted.

[Skayth]

My issue is the threads that ask a question that can be answered by simply reading the first page of the Demonology guide Zinnin wrote. If someone asks an in depth question that warrants its own thread, then I'm more than happy to help them. If its something as silly as asking how much Fury Doom costs, I get annoyed.

This is in depth and needed to be said by a lot of people... >.> *cough* no not really. This is like me asking how much doom cost in mana

otherwise. For 5.2, Ima be demonology with reforge mastery>haste>crit so my os destruction can be used to full extent with the shivarra, even though I will miss sac. But with the constant nerfs to destruction, for no reason, it pushes me into demonology. Ahh well. And from the looks of it, I might go wrathguard for most of the fights in 5.2

[Biruta]

I think you're looking at the Sac nerf a bit wrongly. Ideally, pet damage would equal or be greater than additional damage done by all abilities from Sac if Blizz balances as they would like to. .

If the use of GoSup pets supplies all skills using GoSac as you think, why they have buffed incinerate and conflagrate?
Your answer does not make much sense, sorry... I respect your opinion but u are wrong.
Fel Flame and Shadowburn are being weakened for no reason ... Indeed!
We have bugged pets, they nerfed chaos bolt, chaos wave, blood fear, GoSac, we have ridiculous t4 talents, every 3 months they make some pathetic change in our class, forcing us to reinvent a whole new gameplay that is viable ... I'm sick.
Please, I urge you excuse my language, I know you deserve a higher level of debate, but after years and years of pure slutty made ​​by man named GC, I'm really pissed off!
Meanwhile, warriors, Dks, monks, rogues and shadow priests are very happy in their forums.
Forgive me again.

[xskarma]

Were you using Sacrifice or sup/serv?

I'm guessing the glyph actually makes Sacrifice a bit better than it was previously in single target since most of the damage gain from using the glyph comes from the extra imps that spawn.

Can you share your APL?

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:42 PM ----------



I only did 2 1-hour long tests to try and smooth the RNG on the trinket a bit. I found the glyph to do less damage off the start, but once you got 1 trinket proc and you got up a 3 minute 100% crit doom it pulled ahead very, very quickly.

I'm okay with this being discussed in this thread, but if you guys are going to go in depth on this then it might be a better idea to start a seperate thread to delve into this. It keeps the discussion more focused and prevents you guys from having to surf through 3 pages of this thread to find what people said about this topic previously.

[ZakAtack]

If the use of GoSup pets supplies all skills using GoSac as you think, why they have buffed incinerate and conflagrate?
Your answer does not make much sense, sorry... I respect your opinion but u are wrong.
Fel Flame and Shadowburn are being weakened for no reason ... Indeed!
We have bugged pets, they nerfed chaos bolt, chaos wave, blood fear, GoSac, we have ridiculous t4 talents, every 3 months they make some pathetic change in our class, forcing us to reinvent a whole new gameplay that is viable ... I'm sick.
Please, I urge you excuse my language, I know you deserve a higher level of debate, but after years and years of pure slutty made ​​by man named GC, I'm really pissed off!
Meanwhile, warriors, Dks, monks, rogues and shadow priests are very happy in their forums.
Forgive me again.

The point is that Immo/Incin/Conflag were buffed for overall Destro PVE improvement. That does not mean that they needed to buff all of Destro's spells to "compensate" for the nerf to GoSac. The nerf to GoSac, I believe, was in the same line as it was for Aff; everyone was taking it because it was superior DPS for less effort, especially in Destro's case where it was incredible for Havoc cleaving.

We're going back to pet play, something we've done for years. Locks have gotten so much attention in MoP and we've generally been very strong so far. The nerfs that came were expected, CB and Chaos Wave were doing tons of damage in PVP and Blood Fear was generally accepted as OP. We're not reinventing gameplay through any of these changes, unless you consider commanding a pet to switch targets to be reinvention.

I don't agree with everything GC says and does but I resent those who resort to just criticizing him when their class gets nerfed. SPriests are not too happy last I checked, they got some good PVP nerfs. Warriors are also getting nerfed. Rogues and monks are happy, they're projecting to be strong I think. Why are we talking about them though in a 5.2 lock discussion thread? Class envy?

We'll be fine. The GoSac nerf was not intended to be "pick another talent but buff all affected spells so they do the same amount as they did with GoSac." Shadowburn and Fel Flame will be fine with the damage they're at. You are misinterpreting the specific spell Destro buffs. They are not directly counteracting the Sac nerf, they are PVE boosts. The Sac nerf is to make the other talents more appealing.

[warlockSTAR]

So patch is out in 2 days. Anyone got any solid numbers to go off for what we will be specing?