[Elemental] ToT Trinket Discussion

[Roosky]

was really wondering what other people thought since we don't have any numbers atm have seen a lot of people think http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413 & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96455 are BiS

but i'm curious why not http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96516#comments

even though it has crit as its base stat it has no ICD and 8300 int proc on spell crits seems pretty good since our LvB always crits

[EruptorNZ]

was really wondering what other people thought since we don't have any numbers atm have seen a lot of people think http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413 & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96455 are BiS

but i'm curious why not http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96516#comments

even though it has crit as its base stat it has no ICD and 8300 int proc on spell crits seems pretty good since our LvB always crits

From what I've seen a lot of people think it's

Breath of the Hydra and Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance

Fairly certain that the Wushoolay's Final Choice isn't optimal due to its static hit.

[Deleted]

From what I've seen a lot of people think it's

Breath of the Hydra and Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance

Fairly certain that the Wushoolay's Final Choice isn't optimal due to its static hit.

Pretty much this seems to be best choice from recent simcrafts and what I read as well. Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault wont be bad choice either tho. Its basically same but higher stats as Sha Of Fear trinket.

[EruptorNZ]

Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault wont be bad choice either tho. Its basically same but higher stats as Sha Of Fear trinket.

Yeah I think that will be the best item to spend valor on at the start of 5.2 - Will be pretty good for a while as well.

[Roosky]

I'm using 2/2 upgraded heroic sha trinket atm and wearing a 502 neck since the 509 never dropped off windlord, you can buy 522 necks for 1250 valor at neutral rep with the new faction so i'm going to buy that as it's a bigger upgrade for me personally and that trinket is only slightly better than sha

[Kralljin]

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413 & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96516#comments will be probably BiS

Wusholaay because it's a solid trinket, no real downsides, maybe hit isn't good because we get hitcap from other gearslots already.
Cha-Ye's because it grants crit, personally i think Crit will probably surpass Haste with BiS Gear and it only procs from Crit Spells, so it's gonna be quite decent for Elemental.

Lei shen unerring vision is far too unpredictable because of the ppm system to be of any use for Elemental.
Breath of hydra will have a too low uptime, LoC has shown that DoT Trinket aren't that great for Elemental.

[Ryuke]

Could simply be the int proc from wushoolay's trumps cha-ye's by a large enough margin to where it doesn't matter if its static hit vs static crit.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 04:19 AM ----------

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413 & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96516#comments will be probably BiS

Wusholaay because it's a solid trinket, no real downsides, maybe hit isn't good because we get hitcap from other gearslots already.
Cha-Ye's because it grants crit, personally i think Crit will probably surpass Haste with BiS Gear and it only procs from Crit Spells, so it's gonna be quite decent for Elemental.

Lei shen unerring vision is far too unpredictable because of the ppm system to be of any use for Elemental.
Breath of hydra will have a too low uptime, LoC has shown that DoT Trinket aren't that great for Elemental.

Crit may surpass haste but it wont surpass mastery unless they change lava burst anytime soon

[Kralljin]

Crit may surpass haste but it wont surpass mastery unless they change lava burst anytime soon

If you pick PE it's not that easy, PE doesn't scale with Mastery at all.

Secondly, what has Mastery to do with this discussion?

In terms of secondary stats, any trinket there gives Haste or Crit

[Ryuke]

If you pick PE it's not that easy, PE doesn't scale with Mastery at all.

Secondly, what has Mastery to do with this discussion?

In terms of secondary stats, any trinket there gives Haste or Crit

I'm aware, I'm just surprised anyone would take PE as it creates a gearing issue in and of itself. Assuming you drop echo for ele mastery to go along with PE (if you dont it' dps loss already) you'd want to focus on getting mastery more over haste due to it being a short haste CD for more procs since more hard casting is being done and you have shorter gcd right? But wait that gets wasted on PE since it isnt affected by mastery. So we'll gear for crit despite mastery being best for ele mastery! That's sub optimal also due to lava burst already being 100% crit. Maybe PE would be best if newest 5.2 sims said lightning bolt is more dps then EB with ele mastery so pick up PE insted. If they said that it wouldn't be much of a 90 talent then anyways. PE will probably never be better then EB for Ele unless it gets revamped or you run into a fight where you literally cannot cast EB on CD for a long period of time and can get your primal fire ele used for its full duration every CD.

Secondly, you stated crit will surpass haste. Haste is currently the number one secondary up to a point. With this I assume your saying it would become Crit> haste > mastery after this "Haste cap". Which is wrong as our main damaging ability (Lava burst) is unaffected by crit. Haste capping out at a certain point causes mastery to become our next choice in secondary at this cap because it affects lava burst as well as everything else unlike crit. Crit is a fine secondary and is better then it has been since the introduction of EB but I wouldn't think twice of reforging crit into mastery if the item allows it and I'm hit/haste capped.

Regardless what the main stat the chosen trinket has its going to be reforged into haste or mastery with the remaining static stat as a "bonus". That's all the crit you cant get rid of on your gear really is, a forced bonus. That's why I brought up Mastery in this discussion.

In regard's to chan-ye's its probably a fine trinket which might just lose out on the int proc battle vs woosholay see how well ele shamans scale with pure Int. As you said it procs of critting making it pretty good since we do crit all the time, from lava burst without the additional help of going for more crit :P

[Kralljin]

I'm aware, I'm just surprised anyone would take PE as it creates a gearing issue in and of itself. Assuming you drop echo for ele mastery to go along with PE (if you dont it' dps loss already) you'd want to focus on getting mastery more over haste due to it being a short haste CD for more procs since more hard casting is being done and you have shorter gcd right? But wait that gets wasted on PE since it isnt affected by mastery. So we'll gear for crit despite mastery being best for ele mastery! That's sub optimal also due to lava burst already being 100% crit. Maybe PE would be best if newest 5.2 sims said lightning bolt is more dps then EB with ele mastery so pick up PE insted. If they said that it wouldn't be much of a 90 talent then anyways. PE will probably never be better then EB for Ele unless it gets revamped or you run into a fight where you literally cannot cast EB on CD for a long period of time and can get your primal fire ele used for its full duration every CD.

Without going too much into PE vs EB, PE is a valid choice with 5.2 and this will be especially true on Encounters that allow Cleave and AoE.

Secondly, you stated crit will surpass haste. Haste is currently the number one secondary up to a point. With this I assume your saying it would become Crit> haste > mastery after this "Haste cap".

It doesn't matter which stat is currently best, the difference between them matters.

Haste is for me (Close to T14 BiS) slightly ahead of Mastery, without the 4Pc Mastery is even ahead of Haste.

Haste loses value with progressing gear, which will be even more true with the Legendary Meta Gem.

Which is wrong as our main damaging ability (Lava burst) is unaffected by crit.

Yep, but PE gains a lot out of Crit and any Spell that is able to Crit gains much more out of Crit.

Haste capping out at a certain point causes mastery to become our next choice in secondary at this cap because it affects lava burst as well as everything else unlike crit.

Yea but Mastery doesn't affect every spell as well?

Not that it doesn't affect as Mastery does but crit gains a favor on Spells that are affected by it.

Crit is a fine secondary and is better then it has been since the introduction of EB but I wouldn't think twice of reforging crit into mastery if the item allows it and I'm hit/haste capped.

It will depend on your talent choice, the idea that Crit is the best Stat with PE isn't too far fetched and PE isn't such a bad talent anymore.

Regardless what the main stat the chosen trinket has its going to be reforged into haste or mastery with the remaining static stat as a "bonus". That's all the crit you cant get rid of on your gear really is, a forced bonus. That's why I brought up Mastery in this discussion.

I'm gonna go as far and say that Haste will be equal to Crit with T15 BiS Gear regardless of Talent Choice, if they just buff the uptime of the legendary Meta Gem, this will be even more true.

[Deleted]

http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96413 & http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96516#comments will be probably BiS

Wusholaay because it's a solid trinket, no real downsides, maybe hit isn't good because we get hitcap from other gearslots already.
Cha-Ye's because it grants crit, personally i think Crit will probably surpass Haste with BiS Gear and it only procs from Crit Spells, so it's gonna be quite decent for Elemental.

Lei shen unerring vision is far too unpredictable because of the ppm system to be of any use for Elemental.
Breath of hydra will have a too low uptime, LoC has shown that DoT Trinket aren't that great for Elemental.

I its gonna be Hydra>Wushoolay's. Hydra has no ICD and Wushoolay has hit which gonna be really useless in T15, assumming many Shamans even now are overhitted and reforging hit/spirit away.

[Deleted]

I its gonna be Hydra>Wushoolay's. Hydra has no ICD and Wushoolay has hit which gonna be really useless in T15, assumming many Shamans even now are overhitted and reforging hit/spirit away.

The hit/spirit statement it's true but Hydra procs from PERIODIC spell dmg (and those who already have LoC like me surely know how bad is to rely on a proc that can come either asap out of the ICD or 20 seconds + later) and has roughly the same realPPM proc of wushoolay's, wushoolay's only has 22 secs ICD according to blues and lasts 20 seconds.
I don't see how Hydra will be > Wushoolay's given the facts that the 2nd trinket will proc out alot more often imo.
My guess is that wushoolay and crit one will be BiS.

[Bethan]

Hydra will use realppm, therefore as long as we have a dot that ticks every 10secs we'll have close to optimal uptime anyway. Only problem with that trinket would be on "real aoe" phase where we don't usually have any dot ticking, and having this trinket will "force" us to be flame shock on a target if we want it to proc.

"On dot" trinket are bad for trinket working with "high (static) proc chance with long icd", but that's not how realppm works.

[Kralljin]

Hydra will use realppm, therefore as long as we have a dot that ticks every 10secs we'll have close to optimal uptime anyway. Only problem with that trinket would be on "real aoe" phase where we don't usually have any dot ticking, and having this trinket will "force" us to be flame shock on a target if we want it to proc.

"On dot" trinket are bad for trinket working with "high (static) proc chance with long icd", but that's not how realppm works.

Wushoolay uses RPPM as well, the ICD is just there to prevent reapplication which would be a huge dps loss as the Proc would start over again.

[Michelangelo]

I know we'll all dismiss it because of the wasted potential of this trinket on Lava Burst, but I really want to experiment with Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen and see if you can get a weird Elemental Blast/Fulmination/Lightning Bolt priority going. Guaranteed 250% crit sounds like fun to me, at least to sim.

[Kralljin]

I know we'll all dismiss it because of the wasted potential of this trinket on Lava Burst, but I really want to experiment with Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen and see if you can get a weird Elemental Blast/Fulmination/Lightning Bolt priority going. Guaranteed 250% crit sounds like fun to me, at least to sim.

The Idea itself isn't bad but the RPPM system simply destroys it because it can proc:
While Ascendance is active -> No Gain
Eb is on CD / Shock CD or not enough LS Charges

You simply can't react that easily on this proc as, let's say moonkins by just re apllying dots.

[Michelangelo]

The Idea itself isn't bad but the RPPM system simply destroys it because it can proc:
While Ascendance is active -> No Gain
Eb is on CD / Shock CD or not enough LS Charges

You simply can't react that easily on this proc as, let's say moonkins by just re apllying dots.

I suppose so, compounded by the problem that it is only up for 4 seconds. Regardless, I'm going to win this on a bonus roll and play around with it!

[Ryuke]

Without going too much into PE vs EB, PE is a valid choice with 5.2 and this will be especially true on Encounters that allow Cleave and AoE.

First off "cleaving" you're still using your single target rotation replacing lightning bolt with chain lightning so this doesn't apply. Now lets look at some 5.2 bosses (I've tested them all).

Horridon: As much adds as this boss has you're going to be very little actual time pure aoeing with CL. This fight has a lot of targets you need to single targe down and if you're lucky they're in range to be cleaved. Adding that last phase is single target/cleaving then EB still remains on top for this fight.

Council: Again mainly cleaving if bosses are together with focus of burning down single target with the exception of maybe 10 secs of CL spam on sand elementals.

Tortos: Mainly single target with again ~10 secs of every so often actually requiring a bit of burst to burn down spining turtles making EB that much better.

Ji-kun: This fight depending on where your at you'll be using CL a little bit more then usual if you're breaking eggs/killing adds. With this though if your fire ele comes off CD and you're sitting on an egg platform and then have to move to another losing your fire ele then thats a huge loss in dps.

Primordius: Even though it has a ton of adds typcially they're never close to each other to be cleaved and best to burst them down.

Lei shen: Most of the fight if you're not single target you're cleaving off lei shen or bursting down an add no real need to pure aoe.

Seeing as i've listed all the fights with any sort of external adds with the possibility of being cleaved/aoed and none of them turned out to be long periods of aoeing like heroic sha so I see no use for PE unless you an prove that it's better for single target and up at every optimal time in an encounter.

It doesn't matter which stat is currently best, the difference between them matters.

Haste is for me (Close to T14 BiS) slightly ahead of Mastery, without the 4Pc Mastery is even ahead of Haste.

Haste loses value with progressing gear, which will be even more true with the Legendary Meta Gem.

So you agree then that mastery is ahead of crit? Which is what i'm arguing in the OP. Just because we get more haste with increasing Ilvl doesn't mean we abandon haste all together its still super important and by no means below crit.

Yep, but PE gains a lot out of Crit and any Spell that is able to Crit gains much more out of Crit.

You did read the first paragraph right? The part where any DPS gain over EB would have to come from the talent ele mastery which favors gearing out mastery because if you gear for crit its already a dps loss for ele mastery making PE useless even more so. When in turn if you gear for mastery for ele mastery talent to be a dps increase over echo it becomes useless for PE also resulting in a dps loss, A paradox of sorts.

Yea but Mastery doesn't affect every spell as well?

Not that it doesn't affect as Mastery does but crit gains a favor on Spells that are affected by it.

What spell that we care about in our single target rotation not affected by mastery? It doesn't matter if Lightning bolt and CL are affected by crit they scale with mastery way better. Our new 4 piece will also make mastery way better then crit by itself because it causes more lava bursts in turn reducing CD of ascendance.

It will depend on your talent choice, the idea that Crit is the best Stat with PE isn't too far fetched and PE isn't such a bad talent anymore.

Obviously but that doesn't mean its the right choice. I know its easy for people to assume that since PE got a buff like any other sub par talents get buffed but that doesn't mean they're buffed so much to replace the current talent choice unless the math of extremely obvious.

I'm gonna go as far and say that Haste will be equal to Crit with T15 BiS Gear regardless of Talent Choice, if they just buff the uptime of the legendary Meta Gem, this will be even more true.

Unless you have some pretty convincing math that crit will trump mastery for some odd reason which results in PE being worth grabbing then I'm going to have to disagree. If they buff the uptime on the new meta (Btw focusing gearing on a meta you wont have till mid tier is a bad idea) then again mastery will just benefit more.

[Kralljin]

Horridon: As much adds as this boss has you're going to be very little actual time pure aoeing with CL. This fight has a lot of targets you need to single targe down and if you're lucky they're in range to be cleaved. Adding that last phase is single target/cleaving then EB still remains on top for this fight.

Farraki and Gurubashi door are pretty much AoE, you get enough Adds that AoE is a Dps Gain.

Drakkari is Cleave at best as those adds run around randomnly.

Amani is AoE as well.

So you will be using a lot Cl there and from my experience you won't be using it just for cleave but for AoE as well.

Also, you could just leave PE on the Boss, since it's a controllable pet you won't have issues.

Council: Again mainly cleaving if bosses are together with focus of burning down single target with the exception of maybe 10 secs of CL spam on sand elementals.

I don't see the real issue by tanking Sul and Malakk together, Sul may need interrupts if the Tank has to move but it will be a Dps gain for sure to tank them together.

Tortos: Mainly single target with again ~10 secs of every so often actually requiring a bit of burst to burn down spining turtles making EB that much better.

Killing those Bats even quicker seems a bigger dps gain to me.

Primordius: Even though it has a ton of adds typcially they're never close to each other to be cleaved and best to burst them down.

Not even talking about this fight since the Place where Elemental should be there is the bench.

Seeing as i've listed all the fights with any sort of external adds with the possibility of being cleaved/aoed and none of them turned out to be long periods of aoeing like heroic sha so I see no use for PE unless you an prove that it's better for single target and up at every optimal time in an encounter.

Pe and Eb are already relatively close together, PE get's decent buffs while the Dps gain of EB is slightly decreased by the Lb buff.

They will be very close together.

So you agree then that mastery is ahead of crit? Which is what i'm arguing in the OP. Just because we get more haste with increasing Ilvl doesn't mean we abandon haste all together its still super important and by no means below crit.

I'm not agreeing, i'm pointing out that it will depend on your talent choice.

And Crit is not such a weak stat anymore it used to be, Haste suffers from gear progression and from the Meta Gem greatly on the other hand.

You did read the first paragraph right? The part where any DPS gain over EB would have to come from the talent ele mastery which favors gearing out mastery because if you gear for crit its already a dps loss for ele mastery making PE useless even more so. When in turn if you gear for mastery for ele mastery talent to be a dps increase over echo it becomes useless for PE also resulting in a dps loss, A paradox of sorts.

It is no real paradox.

Mastery get's buffed by the T15 Setbonus, however PE doesn't gain anything from Mastery.

Those 2 things work against each other, without PE Mastery will be surely the best stat but if it's the best stat even with PE is questionable to me.

What spell that we care about in our single target rotation not affected by mastery? It doesn't matter if Lightning bolt and CL are affected by crit they scale with mastery way better. Our new 4 piece will also make mastery way better then crit by itself because it causes more lava bursts in turn reducing CD of ascendance.

With PE around 30% of your dmg is unaffected by Mastery, around 20% comes from FE and the rest is made up by FS, Searing and such.

Obviously but that doesn't mean its the right choice. I know its easy for people to assume that since PE got a buff like any other sub par talents get buffed but that doesn't mean they're buffed so much to replace the current talent choice unless the math of extremely obvious.

Quote me at the point please where i said "PE is will be the best choice by far".

I think that PE and EB will be pretty even on single target, PE however pulls ahead on Cleave and AoE.

Unless you have some pretty convincing math that crit will trump mastery for some odd reason which results in PE being worth grabbing then I'm going to have to disagree. If they buff the uptime on the new meta (Btw focusing gearing on a meta you wont have till mid tier is a bad idea) then again mastery will just benefit more.

Please read the quote again.

I'm gonna go as far and say that Haste will be equal to Crit with T15 BiS Gear regardless of Talent Choice

[Bethan]

Unless you have some pretty convincing math that crit will trump mastery for some odd reason which results in PE being worth grabbing then I'm going to have to disagree.

downloaded the latest version of simC (svn) earlier today and played a bit with it. If I don't change anything with my current stuff/spec, on "ptr" setting it sims haste>crit>mastery (and both difference are bigger than statistical drift) (near bis t14 (with 4p), EotE, EB, and "mastery>haste>crit" reforges). In green/blue gear I also sometime simed crit as best stat at the very beginning of 5.0