[Elemental] ToT Trinket Discussion

[Gistwiki]

Noting that Bink found AS is better than EM for PE. Guessing that's because EM's only going to line up properly with PE every other use, whereas AS benefits every use. Per the sims performed by Dread, for an EB/EoE setup it's Haste > Mastery > Crit by the end of T15 with noticeable gaps between each.

http://dread-gaming.com/simc/ele_mop_35.html

[Ryuke]

I'm tired of quoteing so i'll just use number.

1.) Just because aoe would be more dps it doesn't mean you should scumbag dps just for a higher parse. All the medium adds that put aoe on the ground/raid should be bursted down asap not just spam CL on it because that is going to get you no where just meaningless numbers. If you're going to waste elemental and just have it sit on the boss the whole time its a waste on the needed dps on adds.

2.) Their was never the issue as its pretty common knowledge that they can be tanked together. Only forseeable problem is going omm if your cleaving and CL only hits 2 targets since you dont get enough mana return if you're unlucky.

3.) I forgot to put AoE after the 10 seconds part. You're naturally going to CL the bats no matter what talents you have what I was pointing out was you're going to need the extra burst from EB to take down spinning turtles to A.) Kill them on time B.) Get more time dpsing the boss.

4.) I'm interested to know why you think this? Maybe in a 25 man setting? I know its a lot of single target switching but simply maintaining Flame shock on the boss for surge procs will give you enough lava bursts to blow up adds without FS on the adds.

5.) Sure maybe if you're hitting a target dummy.

6.) I'm going to say this again. If you take EB and Echo, Crit is garbage. If you take PE and echo its a dps loss and crit becomes better but is still garbage compared to EB and Echo with mastery. If you take PE and Ele mastery, crit is garbage for ele mastery resulting in loss of dps as well and is not enough of a gain to make up for damage you lose. See what i'm saying?

7.) Then don't go PE because its sub optimal and distorts synergy with the rest of your gear/set bonuses/spells.

8.) OK but its still less dps overall vs having EB. Of course your damage is going to look different if you have different talent choices.

9.) You don't but you made the suggestion of even thinking about going PE for this tier. What you think isn't exactly true though, I'll say again their are NO fights in this tier like that of heroic sha where you're aoeing for more then 20 seconds to make anyone even think of replacing EB.

10.) Fine T15 BiS gear lets talk about. The ONLY time you'd ever think about turning any extra stat into crit would be if the item already has Haste,Mastery, and your over hit cap turning spirit/hit into crit because you have no other choice. Crit will always be behind mastery and haste no matter what order never equal. Unless we're literally swimming in haste this tier and want to get rid of it we would still reforge into something other then crit unless we absolutely have too which isn't happening this tier.

Plus you already went as far as saying " personally i think Crit will probably surpass Haste with BiS Gear" in your OP. Make up your mind.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 04:48 PM ----------

downloaded the latest version of simC (svn) earlier today and played a bit with it. If I don't change anything with my current stuff/spec, on "ptr" setting it sims haste>crit>mastery (and both difference are bigger than statistical drift) (near bis t14 (with 4p), EotE, EB, and "mastery>haste>crit" reforges). In green/blue gear I also sometime simed crit as best stat at the very beginning of 5.0

Could you link the sim? As well as armory? Something seems well off.. Are you saying (near bis t14 (with 4p), EotE, EB, and "mastery>haste>crit" reforges) is your current setup? Could simply mean you have way to much mastery

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 04:56 PM ----------

Noting that Bink found AS is better than EM for PE. Guessing that's because EM's only going to line up properly with PE every other use, whereas AS benefits every use. Per the sims performed by Dread, for an EB/EoE setup it's Haste > Mastery > Crit by the end of T15 with noticeable gaps between each.

http://dread-gaming.com/simc/ele_mop_35.html

Didn't consider AS. I agree it'd be better for PE but is it better then Eb/EoE? Most likely not. Thanks for the sim link nice to see some popping up! That int scaling his huge lol.

[EruptorNZ]

Thanks for the sim link nice to see some popping up!

http://totemspot.com/simc/Ele_T15H_Talent_Weights.html - Heres some more sims done by Bink if you haven't already seen them. The difference between talent combinations seems quite low.

That int scaling his huge lol.

I'm looking forwarding to maybe gemming something other than pure int next tier, possibly 320 haste/320 mastery depending on the gem socket.

[Kralljin]

1.) Just because aoe would be more dps it doesn't mean you should scumbag dps just for a higher parse. All the medium adds that put aoe on the ground/raid should be bursted down asap not just spam CL on it because that is going to get you no where just meaningless numbers. If you're going to waste elemental and just have it sit on the boss the whole time its a waste on the needed dps on adds.

Elemental deals rather high Singletarget dmg while AoE'ing compared to other casters and it's not "pushing" numbers, those adds need to die and those minor adds spawn to quickly to just ignore them.

2.) Their was never the issue as its pretty common knowledge that they can be tanked together. Only forseeable problem is going omm if your cleaving and CL only hits 2 targets since you dont get enough mana return if you're unlucky.

Just use the Tc glyph?

It's not like that you are oom after 20 sec of Cl spam.

3.) I forgot to put AoE after the 10 seconds part. You're naturally going to CL the bats no matter what talents you have what I was pointing out was you're going to need the extra burst from EB to take down spinning turtles to A.) Kill them on time B.) Get more time dpsing the boss.

Yeah but more AoE Dps -> More Time for Boss Dps.

6.) I'm going to say this again. If you take EB and Echo, Crit is garbage. If you take PE and echo its a dps loss and crit becomes better but is still garbage compared to EB and Echo with mastery. If you take PE and Ele mastery, crit is garbage for ele mastery resulting in loss of dps as well and is not enough of a gain to make up for damage you lose. See what i'm saying?

Crit is NOT Garbage.

The Lvb Dmg portion is totally unaffected by the choice between EB and PE.

Crit get's a 250% Multiplier on any other spell, if you still think that crit is miles behind behind Mastery and Haste then you are still stuck in Cata.

9.) You don't but you made the suggestion of even thinking about going PE for this tier. What you think isn't exactly true though, I'll say again their are NO fights in this tier like that of heroic sha where you're aoeing for more then 20 seconds to make anyone even think of replacing EB.

Again if PE and Eb are pretty much even, you don't need a perma AoE / Cleave Situation that PE pulls ahead.

10.) Fine T15 BiS gear lets talk about. The ONLY time you'd ever think about turning any extra stat into crit would be if the item already has Haste,Mastery, and your over hit cap turning spirit/hit into crit because you have no other choice. Crit will always be behind mastery and haste no matter what order never equal. Unless we're literally swimming in haste this tier and want to get rid of it we would still reforge into something other then crit unless we absolutely have too which isn't happening this tier.

Well, Crit isn't that too far behind on sims, considering that you even get more Haste and an additional 30% Haste Proc doesn't really help Haste.

I could ask you for proves as well that Crit will be always behind Haste if there are no changes coming in that direction.

Plus you already went as far as saying " personally i think Crit will probably surpass Haste with BiS Gear" in your OP. Make up your mind.

But you keep talking like i'm comparing Mastery and Crit regardless of spec?

I am comparing it for the case if you take PE but i never generalized this comparison to any other possible talent choice.

Unless you have some pretty convincing math that crit will trump mastery for some odd reason which results in PE being worth grabbing then I'm going to have to disagree.

That was your original Answer on:

I'm gonna go as far and say that Haste will be equal to Crit with T15 BiS Gear regardless of Talent Choice, if they just buff the uptime of the legendary Meta Gem, this will be even more true.

Now, why do you talk about Crit vs. Mastery when you quote a statement where i say something about Crit vs Haste?

[Ryuke]

http://totemspot.com/simc/Ele_T15H_Talent_Weights.html - Heres some more sims done by Bink if you haven't already seen them. The difference between talent combinations seems quite low.

Interesting how with PE/EoE how close together master/crit/haste are to each other. They all sim close together but I think in real time anything with PE is going to fall behind just due to the nature of the fights.

I'm looking forwarding to maybe gemming something other than pure int next tier, possibly 320 haste/320 mastery depending on the gem socket.

Should go all out and gem all 320 mastery like aff locks!

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 05:28 PM ----------

I am comparing it for the case if you take PE but i never generalized this comparison to any other possible talent choice.

Let me just end this silly argument right here. Their is no case where you should take PE in this new tier and their was barely a reason to this one (H sha if your fight lasts more then 14mins, ours dont). Regardless of stat weights and what makes PE comparable to EB or how much it sims, in live it wont even come close EB. EB is simply more reliable then PE in actual encounters then in simulated ones. In regards to crit yes its better then it was in cata yes its better even now with Lightning bolt buff but its still not good enough compared to Mastery/haste.

This sums up my entire argument in this long winded discussion.

---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 05:38 PM ----------

Back on the topic of trinkets.

BiS is currently looking like Hydra's and cha-ye's based on RPPM which is what really matters when it comes to a trinket

[Bethan]

Could you link the sim? As well as armory? Something seems well off.. Are you saying (near bis t14 (with 4p), EotE, EB, and "mastery>haste>crit" reforges) is your current setup? Could simply mean you have way to much mastery

Actually I didn't notice I had half my gear reforge for my resto spec, (so I ended up with 17% hit and weird reforging).

results of simC (patchwerk, 450sec+-20, with unleash lightning glyph adn 25k iterations)

Armory


bethan_t14_5.2_mastery.html << this is the sim with my current gear, EotE/EB with mastery>haste>crit reforges. I end up with haste, crit and mastery at exactly the same scale factor. switching ~2000 mastery into crit (results in 5.2_crit.html) represent a loss of 90dps (+-90...), so with EotE/EB, crit seems literally as good as mastery (with 4pt14).

Playing a bit with talents, Primal/AS seemed the best choise, and I tried it with mastery>haste>crit (pe_as_mastery) crit>haste>mastery (pe_as_crit), haste>crit>mastery (pe_as_haste_crit) and haste>mastery>crit (pe_as_haste_mastery). In each case crit have a significantly better EP than mastery, and haste vary a bit but seem still best stat, and I end up with "haste>crit>mastery" being highest dps option and still listing crit as slightly better than mastery. Losing 4pt14 to 2pt15 might change result and make mastery pull ahead of crit again.



Back to "trinket" discussion, I'd guess Hydra and Sha'ye will be bis, as I'm not sure we'll really be able to reforge out of 1k6 hit (currently I could only go -1494 spirit by reforging out of as much of it as possible, so I'd still be 160over cap with the heroic version of the trinket). As I stated, the fact that hydra proc off dots is totally irrelevant to it's uptime as long as we keep flame shock up with less than 10sec downtime (which shouldn't be too much of a hassle). On the other hand Sha'ye won't be "that awesome" because, for the same reason, as long as we get one crit every 10sec having LvB at 100% chance of crit won't change it's uptime at all.

As for Unerring Vision, I tried it on ptr, it's just waaaaay to random to use, and when it proc you can't adapt to it as most of your spell are on cd anyway. Proc ended up wasted or totally suboptimal, and it nearly never procs anyway... Only "good" thing about that trinket is the 1k5 intellect, but the proc is wasted on a elemental shaman.

[Ryuke]

Actually I didn't notice I had half my gear reforge for my resto spec, (so I ended up with 17% hit and weird reforging).

results of simC (patchwerk, 450sec+-20, with unleash lightning glyph adn 25k iterations)

Armory


bethan_t14_5.2_mastery.html << this is the sim with my current gear, EotE/EB with mastery>haste>crit reforges. I end up with haste, crit and mastery at exactly the same scale factor. switching ~2000 mastery into crit (results in 5.2_crit.html) represent a loss of 90dps (+-90...), so with EotE/EB, crit seems literally as good as mastery (with 4pt14).

Playing a bit with talents, Primal/AS seemed the best choise, and I tried it with mastery>haste>crit (pe_as_mastery) crit>haste>mastery (pe_as_crit), haste>crit>mastery (pe_as_haste_crit) and haste>mastery>crit (pe_as_haste_mastery). In each case crit have a significantly better EP than mastery, and haste vary a bit but seem still best stat, and I end up with "haste>crit>mastery" being highest dps option and still listing crit as slightly better than mastery. Losing 4pt14 to 2pt15 might change result and make mastery pull ahead of crit again.



Back to "trinket" discussion, I'd guess Hydra and Sha'ye will be bis, as I'm not sure we'll really be able to reforge out of 1k6 hit (currently I could only go -1494 spirit by reforging out of as much of it as possible, so I'd still be 160over cap with the heroic version of the trinket). As I stated, the fact that hydra proc off dots is totally irrelevant to it's uptime as long as we keep flame shock up with less than 10sec downtime (which shouldn't be too much of a hassle). On the other hand Sha'ye won't be "that awesome" because, for the same reason, as long as we get one crit every 10sec having LvB at 100% chance of crit won't change it's uptime at all.

Now blizzard just needs to make another patchwork fight and then hell yeah id go PE/AS!

[Bethan]

Now blizzard just needs to make another patchwork fight and then hell yeah id go PE/AS!

given the fact I'm using unleash lighning, basically any single target boss ends up being a patchwork fight from an elem pov.

Furthermore, in any situation when you end up cleaving, PE goes ahead of EB. On any boss with burst phase, PE is also ahead of EB (providing you can time your primal fire elemental with burst phases, which isn't to hard with the elemental fire glyph). Only mechanics that favor EB over PE are buff that don't affect pets (ie: eternal protectors hc), and those are mostly exceptions.

[Nebria]

given the fact I'm using unleash lighning, basically any single target boss ends up being a patchwork fight from an elem pov.

you can't cast all spells while moving even if you use GoUL and you might have to switch the target so your priority list resets. This is not what a Patchwork fight is where you can follow priority list and ignoring everything else.