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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No it is not. My wants are not needs. Therefore not mandatory.

    I can raid without it, but I will have difficulties in progress area. Because I (and everybody else who ignore VP gear) will be hindering the entire raid.
    We won't be hitting DPS checks.
    Our tanks will be dying a lot due to lack of good gear on tanks AND on healers.
    We are not Paragon.

    Only in academic sense.
    In reality, if it feels mandatory - it is mandatory. I already paid my sub. So if to enjoy the rest of the game I have to do awful dailies - these dailies are mandatory as there's no refund and I want to play the rest of the game.
    Can you be more full of crap? Yes, no normal discussion coming from me when you post this nonsense.

    Instead of arguing dailies are mandatory which they obviously are not you could just say you don't like the system.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-03-04 at 03:04 PM.

  2. #502
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    You just gave a few different examples that do not go with your argument. You say if you don't do the dailies you get progression locked. But you can farm LFR for gear (doesn't take months), buy gear off the AH or make the epics yourself, some heroics drop epics, Sha drops and Klaxxi neck do help no matter what you think. These are all gear you can get without doing a single daily.
    There's one simple detail you forgot about though. The things he mentioned rely on RNG, and RNG can be a cruel merciless bitch.

  3. #503
    Dailies are not forced but due to my insane bad luck with gearing as a tank - 1 item from MSV normal so far, 1 from MSV LFR, still running with an ilvl 450 crafted belt and legs since they refuse to drop in heroics and pumping money into crafted and BOE epics I have no other option. So yes I could just not do dailies and continue relying on luck which hasnt worked thus far, or I can grind dailies for a guaranteed bit of gear.

    Not 'forced' but it feels like they are 'forced' since it seems thats my only viable option of getting guaranteed loot.

    I always find this an odd subject because getting loot from dungeons and raids is entirely RNG based and dailies give you that option to get loot without relying on luck. RNG kicks me in the teeth so I've only got the dailies to fall back on.

  4. #504
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

    I am not saying that the chance is higher at try 10.
    I am saying that the chance they got the item is higher if you calculate the totals from every try of those 10.
    Oh, i see now.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?
    Half the people will get it within log(.5)/log(.9) < 7 tries.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #506
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Half the people will get it within log(.5)/log(.9) < 7 tries.
    Likely to get it. It's not guaranteed.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    They admitted they "felt" mandatory. Yes, if you used simple arithmetic and common sense, they weren't mandatory at all. But Blizzard doesn't design games for an audience comprised entirely of people capable of using simple arithmetic and common sense. They design it for all of us, including the rather large and very vocal portion of the playerbase who are too dumb to understand this and just go by what the game "feels" like.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 03:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No!
    Yes, you can, if people can play halfway decently.

    So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    If you factor in herpaderps needing to overgear it, then yes, MSV was tuned for a mix of blues and epics. Epics that drop in the instance. You know, the way raids are supposed to work.

    I bought a grand total of two valor items before 5.1, shoulders and ring. My DPS increased maybe 1% because of them.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  8. #508
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojinshugi View Post
    Yes, you can, if people can play halfway decently.



    If you factor in herpaderps needing to overgear it, then yes, MSV was tuned for a mix of blues and epics. Epics that drop in the instance. You know, the way raids are supposed to work.

    I bought a grand total of two valor items before 5.1, shoulders and ring. My DPS increased maybe 1% because of them.

    Olivia Wilde thinks you are awesome!
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    You have a currency. That currency is used to purchase gear upgrades that don't happen to drop for you. If you want to use that currency you HAVE to do dailies.

    How the hell isn't that mandatory?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Olivia Wilde thinks you are awesome!
    Looks like she's yawning.

    She wants the D.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    Your mention of "gear scaling" must have been lost in one of your other posts as you make absolutely no mention of it in what I quoted. All you said in my initial quoted text was "I want the top level offerings from the beginning" equating to "Give me what I want without me having to really do anything to prove I deserve it". I would imagine that you also realize... if you made the gear scale based on the rep you have earned with the faction... You are doing the exact same thing you are now... It's just that you are buying 1 item instead of possibly a couple. You still have to do the dailies (or use other methods to obtain the rep... see: Hozen Peace Pipe, or the 5.2 Sunsong Ranch work orders). Your idea isn't changing anything.

    Let me elaborate. As I said, the game is an evolving story. As much as you don't believe it... the rep factions are part of that story. Blizzard wants you to realize that you need to progress with each faction's story to get the best gear they have to offer. Sure, you may not get much of the story until the very end, but if you think about it (as a whole) in terms of a story, it makes sense. As an example, I have items for sale. I keep some of them safely tucked away for whatever reason I may have. Could be that these items are highly sought after because they could be copied by other groups, some of the items could be controversial... really, the reason doesn't matter. Now, you come to me and are interested in obtaining the items I have... I need you to show me you aren't going to screw me over, thus I make you work a little harder to get the top of the line items I have. I have to know I can trust you to not destroy my business. That's what the rep factions are doing with the player.

    Of course, based on your reply, you don't care about the story of the game. You simply want the path of least resistance, but you want ALL of the benefits therein.

    Finally, I would like to touch on the last line of your reply to me.

    "Frankly the story in the game is piss poor anyway and story concerns should NEVER over write game play issues." As for the story being piss poor... that's a personal opinion where we differ. You have every right to feel the way you do, though it begs the question... why do you torture yourself and play through something you call "piss poor"? And this idea of story concerns never overwriting game play issues. To be honest, I am not sure where you are getting this kind of stuff. To me, it boils down to "The game is making me work harder than I choose to... but I still want all of the rewards that people who put in the time end up getting."

    Aside from you, Leonard McCoy, and back to the question at hand. Has anyone considered that Blizzard admitted this to shut the complainers up? Is it possible that Blizzard is changing things to prove to the community that the set up for 5.1 wasn't really that bad? I will be interested in seeing what people think when 5.2 comes out. Wonder how many threads like this will crop up... At which point, those of us who didn't think the dailies were a problem can sit back and giggle at all of the same people complaining about the 5.2 version. Many good times will be had.
    Right now go back and catch up with the rest of the discussion. Or don't bother commenting. Really what's the sense in posting if your just gonna come in half way and pick something apart you don't like without reading the rest of the follow up? It isn't the same thing by any large margin. It lets YOU the user decide what piece you get available to you to compensate for what other reward you might be lucky or unlucky to get. It also doesn't interfere with your story concern the slightest because your still getting the best ilvl piece at each rep lvl.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post

    [/COLOR]

    Looks like she's yawning.

    She wants the D.

    The Daily quest?
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 04:26 PM.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Likely to get it. It's not guaranteed.
    No, but that's not what was being claimed.

    Anyway, we can compute the number of tries so that the probability that every member of the population will have gotten it is at least .5. For N = 10 million, this would be about 160.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-03-04 at 05:27 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Let me quote: "Whilst you are content to put up with whatever Blizzard throws at you"


    But you did say that: "Whilst you are content to put up with whatever Blizzard throws at you"


    Why is it idiotic?
    If something is really forced, then discussion is impossible.
    "People force us to do raids for PVE-achievements!" < Can't discuss that.
    "People force us to do dailies." < That's wrong, you just 'FEEL' forced. That's something we can discuss.

    If people feel forced to do dailies which aren't intended to be forced upon the players, you can always talk to them and try to understand why they feel like that.
    And with that information you can decide about the direction of the game.


    Is it possible to obtain 480-gear without dailies?
    Yes, it is. Therefore it is proven that dailies are not forced.
    That makes it a fact.
    I make no mention of your dislike for dailies. I seem to have hit a nerve but ultimately you are content to put whatever they throw at you even though you do not like this content here you are, not only, still paying Blizzard but defending them for it.

    It is idiotic because from a customer point of view is does not matter the result is the same either way people are going to stop paying and by arguing the customer is wrong all you are going to do is ensure that they will not return or buy your future products. But hey it's better to right and poor.

    Again you are answering something that is not there. Where did I write that you cannot obtain gear through other means? The fact remains that people feel that they are forced to run dailies this is not going to be changed by the fact you could gear your character through other less efficient ways. Some of those people have quit and will not return and no amount of telling them they could run heroics a hundred odd times instead is going to bring them back.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Your point doesn't include bad drops in MSV, which are easily replaced by VP gear.
    Actually, it did ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Olivia Wilde thinks you are awesome!
    What was it now ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Don't waste thread space.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  14. #514
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.

    "Mists of Pandaria set out to provide lots of things for you to do, but daily quests ended up feeling more mandatory than they wanted. The Patch 5.2 daily quests feel less mandatory."

    Off main page.

    It's sad and frustrating though because it took months of people bitching and complaining and they just defended it by saying 'you don't have to do dailies'. Yes you did because it's the only way to spend the damn JP/VP. Unreal. They didn't lose me personally, but I know a lot of players just in my guild/on my server who quit over the bullshit reputation grinds.
    This has been their MO for a LONG TIME. It is also my biggest gripe with leaders in the company.

    Anytime there is a big issue with recent development, they will defend their decisions to the grave. If you voice an opinion they just write it off as you being the "vocal minority" another phrase I really hate and its just their way of ignoring and deflecting the issues so they don't have to address them.

    Then when they finally do address it, do they give any aknowledgement to those who were frustrated by the content, and then even MORE frustrated when they stood by it, not a fucking chance in hell.

    Blizzard is in desperate need of new management, I'm talking head developers, as well as corporate executives. It is blatantly clear that they don't have the interest of their customers at heart, nor their stockholders (their real loyalty) the game, the company isn't growing. The absence of growth in a company is death... whether an agonizing slow death or not, its still death.

    That being said 9 million players is still enough people to keep SEVERAL mmos going for a considerable amount of time. But the fact remains that they are not doing a good job, and its time for someone else to take the reigns.

    I have said this for a LONG time now. They need to switch their focus from obtaining new players, and focus more on retention and bring back old players. Being an MMO the game is naturally going to progress but when your business model only focuses on getting newbies, who play the game, get to max level, experience a fraction of endgame and then bail, and not on your hardcore fans... you have serious issues.

  15. #515
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
    Yes. It's tuned for heroic blues and Heart of Fear is tuned for the gear you earned from MV. Guilds steam rolled normal mode with possibly 10 epics to go between 10 people before they cleared the final boss. They didn't have weeks of valor built up.

  16. #516
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    This has been their MO for a LONG TIME. It is also my biggest gripe with leaders in the company.

    Anytime there is a big issue with recent development, they will defend their decisions to the grave. If you voice an opinion they just write it off as you being the "vocal minority" another phrase I really hate and its just their way of ignoring and deflecting the issues so they don't have to address them.
    They only do that if you disagree. If you agree with them and write a moderately coherent post on the official forums, likely as not you'll get a nice blue pat on the head.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    Then when they finally do address it, do they give any aknowledgement to those who were frustrated by the content, and then even MORE frustrated when they stood by it, not a fucking chance in hell.

    Blizzard is in desperate need of new management, I'm talking head developers, as well as corporate executives. It is blatantly clear that they don't have the interest of their customers at heart, nor their stockholders (their real loyalty) the game, the company isn't growing. The absence of growth in a company is death... whether an agonizing slow death or not, its still death.

    That being said 9 million players is still enough people to keep SEVERAL mmos going for a considerable amount of time. But the fact remains that they are not doing a good job, and its time for someone else to take the reigns.

    I have said this for a LONG time now. They need to switch their focus from obtaining new players, and focus more on retention and bring back old players. Being an MMO the game is naturally going to progress but when your business model only focuses on getting newbies, who play the game, get to max level, experience a fraction of endgame and then bail, and not on your hardcore fans... you have serious issues.

    I absolutely agree. The one thing I've never understood is how, after hitting undreamed of levels of subscribers and profits with BC and Vanilla, management at Blizz decided they needed to change the fundamentals of the game as they headed into Wrath. It's like they woke up one morning and went, "The present model got us to 12 million players. I guess it's time to dumb down the game to reduce complexity; change the gearing model; and change how talents, professions, abilities, and even classes work at a fundamental level. Oh, and let's make as much content as possible irrelevant while we're at it."

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    I absolutely agree. The one thing I've never understood is how, after hitting undreamed of levels of subscribers and profits with BC and Vanilla, management at Blizz decided they needed to change the fundamentals of the game as they headed into Wrath. It's like they woke up one morning and went, "The present model got us to 12 million players. I guess it's time to dumb down the game to reduce complexity; change the gearing model; and change how talents, professions, abilities, and even classes work at a fundamental level. Oh, and let's make as much content as possible irrelevant while we're at it."
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.

    But that would make too much sense and make your whining seem selfish, so it can't possibly be correct, yes?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #518
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Yes. It's tuned for heroic blues and Heart of Fear is tuned for the gear you earned from MV. Guilds steam rolled normal mode with possibly 10 epics to go between 10 people before they cleared the final boss. They didn't have weeks of valor built up.
    The great majority of guilds had trouble getting past 2-3 bosses in normal mode MSV without gearing up for a few weeks.

    What top 100 guilds do is not really what everyone else does.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    See, that is the part I reacted to.
    I am not defending them at all.
    I am merely attacking the arguments that are wrong.
    There's a lot wrong with the daily-system, but they are still not being forced.

    So let's start about how they lock all VP-upgrades behind dailies.
    Complain about the huge amount of dailies or even the lore/content hidden behind them.
    But don't say they are forced, that's bullshit.
    It is amazing that all the arguments that are wrong are those that do not agree with Blizzard.

    It is clear you don't understand the problem. Nothing in the game is forced however if you wish to experience the full stories of the new factions there is no alternative but to do dailies until you are exalted so for Lore followers they are forced. For those who want to collect all the profession recipes they must gain exalted status the option is dailies, again, for auction house players there is no alternative. The rep collectors no alternative. So there are three sets of players that are forced to complete dailies.

    There is, also, the issue of regular players feeling that they need complete dailies in order to buy gear that they have not gained through drops. Of course you will argue, pointing to yourself, that they do not need to do dailies in order to fill the missing slots the problem is that many of the alternatives are worse or not even an option as far as these players are concerned no amount of Blizzard telling different and you repeating them is going to change their minds about this. Perception is king in the entertainment/leisure industry and the perception of many is that they are forced to complete dailies.

    They have given their feedback to Blizzard and been told that they are wrong and many have done the only thing they can do in this position and taken their money elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.
    Too true but how this data has driven them to some of their recent decisions is beyond me it is almost like they are playing Brewster's Millions with sub numbers.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Too true but how this data has driven them to some of their recent decisions is beyond me it is almost like they are playing Brewster's Millions with sub numbers.
    The move from BC to Wrath, and the move from Wrath to Cataclysm, are hard to reconcile. They've never adequately explained the discrepancy.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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