Ban DPS Metres

[schwank05]

I think they should be required. There is nothing worse than pulling some retard through content that just cant seem to get it right. Have had many of these in the past they would in most cases be more geared than the rest of the raid. But when it came down to doing things DPS/ HPS they were far behind where they needed to be.

[Firebert]

its about not putting up with slackers and afkers.

AFKers do 0 DPS, so should be kicked.

Slackers shouldn't be kicked, as that is exactly asserting your epeen. People shouldn't be exempt from the game because the community require them to spend time out of the game in order to do slightly more DPS. Just because you did doesn't mean they should.

[Sansnom]

This is the kind of DPS I personally speak of when I say "This is just lazy and inconsiderate" the guy at #4

That was the entire DPS record of a Scarlet Monastery run.

Unless you know the person, I would not arbitrary label someone as "lazy". I have played with some people who had low DPS. It was not because they were lazy, they were trying. Just not very good. They enjoy the game, they know they are not raiders but just want to play with friends and so we carry them through the dungeons. Occasionally when we pickup a random DPS or healer and they moan about it but the others were more than making up the slack.

[Firebert]

This is the kind of DPS I personally speak of when I say "This is just lazy and inconsiderate" the guy at #4

Naming and shaming's not allowed.

Also, be thankful he was doing 10k and not 1k.

[jayinjersey]

I've been kicked for "trivializing the dungeon, sorry mate"


I was pissed...but I got over it and queued up again.

[AVPaul]

What's the reason to improve, if you can't measure this improvment somehow?

[Cirque]

See now... here's the funny thing. People keep saying "requeue and hope for nice group or go with guildies"... but in all reality, would you really want to group with a person who absolutely for the love of their life can't pull their weight? I'm talking about the person who is somehow managing 5k dps when everyone else including tank and healer are doing at least 30? Yeah, me neither. Even as a guildie, if I discovered someone was pretty darn bad and was unable to improve even after numerous suggestions... I would just stop having them tag along with me. Depending on the scenario, I might even say out loud "dude, you're bad. Terrible, in fact. So terrible that I don't want to group with you until you improve."

In all honesty, I don't mind at all. In fact, I tend to be happy because that means I get to inflate my own dps. I have never kicked anyone for low dps and I have met godawful dps. I kick people for being assholes however.

It's slightly annoying when your entire group does shit dps and I'm tanking or healing, but even then I won't kick for that. It's a silly reason, they may not do 120k but I can see they're trying at least.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 05:41 PM ----------

I've been kicked for "trivializing the dungeon, sorry mate"


I was pissed...but I got over it and queued up again.

Hahah, I can understand though. I hate it when I'm just dinged, or when I'm leveling and some maxlevel hops in to help his friend. It makes me feel useless. xD I don't complain though cause I understand the good intention in the latter, and for the former - well, dude needs his valors too. Besides, I trivialize dungeons as well on my main and I'd hate to be kicked for that myself.

[Maggibesti]

I wish Blizz would ban dps metres, for a example i was a nearly level 90 pally not very good geared as i wanted to start dungeons to get gear to raid, so was happily going through temple of the jade serpant to get new gear and was kicked for having low dps i was below tank and druid dps if i recall, but here is my problem dont you have to gear to get better gear to higher your dps i have to say it put me off doing dungeons and just do scenerios now i never had this problem in tbc or lich king instances

The thing is, In WoW people need to use their class rotation to get a decent dps. You can go in with leveling gear and still do decent dps, atleast more then the tank. Alot of people that play wow now are people who have been playing since classic or tbc actively. When they queue for 5-mans they expect everyone to know what to do, they expect people to have knowledge of their class and spells. Its just common sense. Why is it so hard to waste 1 hour in your life time to read about how to gem, reforge and enchant your gear, what spec is the best for you and what stats to go for. Then learn the rotation, go on dummy for 20-30 minutes. Don´t go in as a hunter only spamming cobra shot or druid spamming moonfire, ofcourse you'll get kicked. Sometimes low dps can cause wipes, and in randoms people don't like wipes. So if you wanna keep your spot and finish what you want to do without any trouble at all, learn your class. You've been playing since TBC and WotLK you say, so you should have some knowledge about the classes and how to maximize your effort.

[Karlz0rz]

At least 40k is just ridiculous in full greens, you know you lose all hit rating/haste shit while leveling 85-90 so you will infact do _less_ damage than an hc geared lvl 85 doing 85 heroics right? It's pretty easy for let's say an elemental shaman to chainlightning every pack to 70k even in full greens, but for SOME other classes it's just not doable, you ignorant fool./
When I read the ignorance of a lot of people in this thread I'm quite glad I managed to kick ~30 of those kind of people from my hc runs already.

Yes, because reforging/enchanting/gemming your green/blue items is out of the question! Again, if you don't do that shit, you are bad. Did I strike a soft spot or something? I pulled about 50k on a boss in HC on my newly dinged enha-shaman. It was a mix of greens/blues. If I can do it, you can do it.
If people say otherwise, they are just bad or chose not to be their best. Simple as that!

[dryankem]

If shit dies and I don't, then I don't really care what other people's DPS is. I'll kick if the person is an ahole or they are dc'd and that's about it. I don't expect everyone to know the ins and outs of their rotation, they might be new, under-geared or just plain bad and I'm happy to help them clear the dungeon.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 01:02 PM ----------

Yes, because reforging/enchanting/gemming your green/blue items is out of the question! Again, if you don't do that shit, you are bad. Did I strike a soft spot or something? I pulled about 50k on a boss in HC on my newly dinged enha-shaman. It was a mix of greens/blues. If I can do it, you can do it.
If people say otherwise, they are just bad or chose not to be their best. Simple as that!

On some classes I can pull amazing DPS on others I suck. Gear or no gear, enchanted or not. And why would you enchant and gem green gear? Random heroics don't need that much DPS.

On my DK, hunter or elemental shaman I could pull more DPS at 86-87 then my spriest in 450-460 gear. But I keep trying to get better on my spriest but so far no luck. I've read rotations, practiced on dumbies and nothing. Heck I can even jump on my wife's under-gear, half enchanted/gem'd warrior and pull higher numbers and her key binds are terrible so I'm forced to click a lot of her rotation.

I'm just not very good at dot classes but I try, does that make me a bad player? On my ilvl 480 DK I compete regularly with ilvl 500s but my spriest or boomy might as well be afk because I'm usually just above the tank (absolutely terrible on trash and decent on bosses but not great).

[Tziva]

This could basically apply to every single world/economic/social issue that exists.

"The problem isn't (insert_issue_here), the problem is assholes.

It's not really analogous, though, since a lot of those alternative situations (like people's prior comparisons to guns and warheads), since DPS tools are an inherently benign tool, of benign creation, with benign utility. You can't say that about a nuclear bomb.

The problem really isn't the DPS meters. All they do is collect data from the game and display it in an easy to read format. It's not the fault of the tool if particular assholes use it for malevolent purposes.

[Firecrest]

People shouldn't be exempt from the game because the community require them to spend time out of the game in order to do slightly more DPS. Just because you did doesn't mean they should.

What? No. That's exactly the point. Let's look at it mathematically.

Little Johnny doesn't like to read and doesn't like to look at DPS Meters. So his numbers are slightly (more like "significantly", but we'll go with your term) lower. Johnny joins a raid group of 24 other people. They throw themselves at the boss and miss it by thaaaat much (if I had a dollar for every one of my 2% wipes). Assuming they get the kill on the next attempt, Johnny just wasted ~15 minutes of 24 people's time. That's a combined total of six hours. If Johnny had not been an inconsiderate prick and had spent even just three hours learning to freaking play, we'd have a net gain of 3 hours and 25 happy people.

People always like to say that those of us who press and punish underperformers are selfish. That we don't respect casual players' time or the way in which they want to play the game. The truth is really the other way around. When I yell at you for doing piss poor DPS, it affects just you. Your substandard play, on the other hand, affects 4, 9, or 24 other people.

[Firebert]

Little Johnny doesn't like to read and doesn't like to look at DPS Meters. So his numbers are slightly (more like "significantly", but we'll go with your term) lower. Johnny joins a raid group of 24 other people. They throw themselves at the boss and miss it by thaaaat much (if I had a dollar for every one of my 2% wipes). Assuming they get the kill on the next attempt, Johnny just wasted ~15 minutes of 24 people's time. That's a combined total of six hours. If Johnny had not been an inconsiderate prick and had spent even just three hours learning to freaking play, we'd have a net gain of 3 hours and 25 happy people.

So casual players doing less than an arbitrary amount of DPS are inconsiderate pricks because they'd much rather enjoy themselves than do three hours of homework.

Don't know how that's defensible.

Aside from that, during the three hours you wanted Johnny to "learn to freaking play", you would have got someone else and cleared the raid anyway (by your assumption), so Johnny loses out twice if he reads up. Definitely an incentive to just play for fun.

When I yell at you for doing piss poor DPS, it affects just you. Your substandard play, on the other hand, affects 4, 9, or 24 other people.

Substandard is arbitrary for 5-mans. If you're missing enrage timers due to one player's low DPS in a raid, then you should be helping them improve their DPS, not kick them because of your laziness.

[Deleted]

The meters are as good as people using them.

Many people using meters use them solely to improve themselves, testing better openers and different talents etc.

Surround yourself with not awful people, or use the meters how they were originally intended, bettering yourself so these people won't kick you.

This exactly, I mainly use the meters to improve my rotation according to my actual gear, the meters are not the problem, the idiots are, same thing as with the itemscore addon in wotlk

[Deleted]

It would've helped a lot if OP linked his damage done or DPS recount, now we don't know how bad he actually was in that run. Every new DPS can do atleast 40k.

I usually don't mind low DPS as long as they are atleast doing their best, and that we can kill the bosses in time. But if the player is simply lazy or afking half the time, I won't regret kicking him.

NOT every new DPS can hit 40k, unless they have been ran straight through raids and have 489+ ilvl.

Realistic dps for a fresh dinged is 20-30k bracket in basic gear with 1-2 bought pieces and maybe 455 ilvl, though some classes/specs i would put as low as 15-20k from the players I have seen out there.

I have 465 in my boomkin spec, and only just get 30k, some of that is down to being a bad boomkin, and others being down to ilvl.

Of course some classes can quite happily turn up and hit 30-40k at ding, others require scaled gear to hit those heights.

[MrHappy]

dps in heroics matter sooooooooooo much -.-' unless you were doing so low that people thought you were afk auto'ing th boss then perhaps you need to look into your class a bit more.

Look you need to take this kicking thing differently and not go onto a rampage for 10000000 of people that use them as a tool. If you are doing 5-10% of groups damage because of your gear and the rest of group is geared looking for quick valor then it is in their prerogative to kick you and hope you will be replaced by someone with more gear to make the run faster and more efficient. Personally I do not mind carrying people...been there myself. But if you are weak dps that either don't do mechanics/doing low damage and hindering performance of others because of it ...then yea I'd kick you. It is nothing personal but if I que for a heroic I don't expect to be there for 30min (which i had cases of due to people's stupidity like not using Bombs in the Bug instance which resulted in taking for ever to kill the boss making heals go OOM because DPS was staning in bombs and eventually causing a wipe). Most people want quick valor and your lack of gear while a deuchy move is still a valid one.

My advice is que with friends/guildies who don't mind carrying you quickly through a heroic while you gear up. I've helped some of our core raiders gear up alts for situation when we were lacking heals/tanks and grinded stuff with them.

Don't blame meters for your kick...

you have three options

1) look into your class in case your dps was so low that it just looks to others like you don't know what you are doing or going afk
2) que with people you know
3) /ignore people that kick you so you won't que with those people again and que again. I doubt you are kicked in every single instance

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 05:51 PM ----------

I have 465 in my boomkin spec, and only just get 30k, some of that is down to being a bad boomkin, and others being down to ilvl.

Of course some classes can quite happily turn up and hit 30-40k at ding, others require scaled gear to hit those heights.

that's the thing though. Some people don't want a bad boomkin because the groups wants to plow through the instance and wants someone who can do 2-3x that number. Granted that would take 490+ gear with good understanding of class but again that's the group's prerogative and gamble to hope you get replaced with someone who is better than you.

[schwank05]

if you do less dps than a tank the problem is not the dps meter, it's you.

you are being carried so hard if you do less dps than a tank that it's not even funny and I would without a doubt kick anyone that doesn't out damage the tank.

For most cases I will agree with this, but there are cases where a Tank is always going to win there 2 fights in MSV where a tank can easily win DPS. Dogs, and Will. Our warrior tank who is tanking 2 dogs with a crap ton of Vengeance can easily top meters, now with the nerf this is less true. But it can happen.

[bigdrood]

If it seems to me you are "trying" and aren't pulling better dps than the tank i will let it slide. But if i don't think you are "trying" i will try to out dps you while healing. if that's the case its usually a unanimous vote kick.

[McCronCronz]

DPS meters are a very good thing. The bad thing is the way some people use it. It's very useful for improving your skills and shows a bunch of other statistics too.

[Firecrest]

So casual players doing less than an arbitrary amount of DPS are inconsiderate pricks because they'd much rather enjoy themselves than do three hours of homework.

Don't know how that's defensible.

It's defensible to a rational, considerate human being. If someone is neither of those things, then it may be a difficult concept to grasp. When one person decides to value a little bit of their own time over a lot of other people's time is when it becomes an indefensible position.

Aside from that, during the three hours you wanted Johnny to "learn to freaking play", you would have got someone else and cleared the raid anyway (by your assumption), so Johnny loses out twice if he reads up. Definitely an incentive to just play for fun.

Yes. In the entirety of Johnny's WoW career, the only point in which he had the time necessary to learn his class is in the three hours beginning at the exact same time as the raid he wants in on. Poor Johnny.

Substandard is arbitrary for 5-mans. If you're missing enrage timers due to one player's low DPS in a raid, then you should be helping them improve their DPS, not kick them because of your laziness.

Wait wait wait. Did you seriously just say that I'm the lazy one if some asshat shows up for raid with no idea WTF he's doing? Buddy, you've got your wires crossed or something. Besides the fact that most of these players are so confident in their "skills" that they won't listen anyway, there simply aren't enough hours in a day for a decent player to spend his time mentoring every casual player he comes across who was too lazy to attempt learning on his own.