My gripe as a fresh 90 trying to raid.

[Charge me Doctor]

Nah, it's really the same or even easier as now you can buy gear in the bmah, mostly for the same price as the ah. Gladly is not as easy as wotlk tho.

haven't seen any piece of cloth on BMAH, checking since 5.0

[Shahad]

I'm not being condescending. The Cataclysm model did see many players, more than the amount complaining about the current model, moan about having nothing to do in SW/Org. Fact is, if you are being objective, the model which you liked was too fast and had to be changed. Now, I'm not suggesting MoP gear progression is all roses- it can certainly do with some clarity and streamlining- but the practice of feeding epics to fresh level capped players so they were raid worthy in a couple of nights wasn't working.

I am not saying the Cata model was perfect. Indeed, I would imagine it would be fairly easy to run out of things to do on a character. I was okay with it because I played enough characters and participated in enough things to not notice(raiding, pvp, soloing instances, leveling, etc). What I am arguing rather, is that the MoP system is also flawed and that we should seek to strike a balance between the two. Which could be achieved I believe by introducing new dungeons during 5.3 or 5.4

[Crashdummy]

Rapid consummation of the existing content most certainly had an effect. Both this and content production have been addressed.

Not really, content was not consumed fast. 4.0 heroics were not fast consumed (and actually, during 4.0 most of the complaints were about the lenght of them, which was adressed by making faster heroics) and the 4.0 rid was pretty challenging, and not consumed fast either.

Yet 4.0 brought a lot of subs loss.

Again, speed of consume was not the problem, the problem was that there was little amount of content.

Mind you, the only quarter were Cataclysm did not lost sub was the quarter were consuming content (in the form of getting gear) was faster, which was DS launch quarter.

Numbers tell us that rapid consumption was not the problem.

[Deleted]

Not really, content was not consumed fast. 4.0 heroics were not fast consumed (and actually, during 4.0 most of the complaints were about the lenght of them, which was adressed by making faster heroics) and the 4.0 rid was pretty challenging, and not consumed fast either.

Yet 4.0 brought a lot of subs loss.

Again, speed of consume was not the problem, the problem was that there was little amount of content.

Mind you, the only quarter were Cataclysm did not lost sub was the quarter were consuming content (in the form of getting gear) was faster, which was DS launch quarter.

Numbers tell us that rapid consumption was not the problem.

Are you trying to suggest a model which allowed players to not only skip tiers worth of content but gear up at an accelerated rate did not contribute to the lack of overall content in Cataclysm? Of course lack of actual content was a major factor but it damn well didn't help allowing players to skip swathes of perfectly good, existing content. And using sub numbers to prop up your argument does little to sway me if you are not going to provide me with evidence that shows correlation equals causation; I could just as well say sub numbers are falling because clearly goblin, worgen and pandaren races are unpopular with the playerbase and you can't prove me wrong.

[Crashdummy]

Are you trying to suggest a model which allowed players to not only skip tiers worth of content but gear up at an accelerated rate did not contribute to the lack of overall content in Cataclysm? Of course lack of actual content was a major factor but it damn well didn't help allowing players to skip swathes of perfectly good, existing content. And using sub numbers to prop up your argument does little to sway me if you are not going to provide me with evidence that shows correlation equals causation; I could just as well say sub numbers are falling because clearly goblin, worgen and pandaren races are unpopular with the playerbase and you can't prove me wrong.

People are already skipping tiers. Someone that joins today will skip tiers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 and 13.

And no, catching up mechanims did not contribute to people having little thigns to do, as lack of the need to do tier 1 to do tier 11 did not contribute either.

Numbers dont lie, the only quarter where Cata did not lose subs was the quarter where DS launched, which is also the quarter with more catch up mechanisms in the whole Cataclysm. You can argue all you want, but T11, with no catch up mechanism lost subs, DS launch didnt.

[Shahad]

People are already skipping tiers. Someone that joins today will skip tiers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 and 13.

And no, catching up mechanims did not contribute to people having little thigns to do, as lack of the need to do tier 1 to do tier 11 did not contribute either.

Numbers dont lie, the only quarter where Cata did not lose subs was the quarter where DS launched, which is also the quarter with more catch up mechanisms in the whole Cataclysm. You can argue all you want, but T11, with no catch up mechanism lost subs, DS launch didnt.

Just to help the discussion, here's the graph of sub numbers from 2005 Q1 to 2012 Q4: http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...d-of-warcraft/

[nightfalls]

You can catch up, it's really not that difficult. Not as easy as 4.3 Cataclysm, but even probably easier than 4.2 Cataclysm.

[Deleted]

Just to help the discussion, here's the graph of sub numbers from 2005 Q1 to 2012 Q4: http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...d-of-warcraft/

All your graph shows is that after a few months of 4.3 subscriptions fell to just above nine million. So, if we accept that subscription numbers can accurately gauge the success of relevant models (which neither you or Crashdummy have proven) then it has to be said that 4.3's catch up dungeons did little to sustain subscriptions as people came back-did what they had to do-and left.

[Mordredofmia]

I just recently dinged my rogue(alt) to 90 and after I finished doing the Klaxxi dailies I cancelled my sub. I'm not doing the golden lotus dailies ever again, that was some of the most boring and poorly designed shit i have ever played in my life. There is just far too much gating in the game. The rep gating of valor rewards at the start was absolutely unacceptable and the lack of catch-up dungeons in the plan for Mists just doesn't give me any incentive to keep paying $15 a month so I can run LFR over and over and over again. It's stupid.

In Wraith, my character hit 80, had enough gear to run into heroics. Then I did heroics until I had enough gear to get into a VOA or ICC Pug. Then I got to have fun playing the current content with everyone else. I didn't have to allocate an hour or more a day to do dailies, I didn't have to allocate two or more hours(queue plus raid) to run LFR to get my once a week chance at increasing my ilvl. I didn't have to run a myriad of poorly designed daily quests to spend my valor points, which back there didn't trickle in worthlessly and emblems of frost felt important and valuable to spend. don't understand the mindset of some many elitist miserable snobs on this forum. Why does the game have to be a tedious bore? Why do you need other people to suffer through some miserable bullshit so your achievements have merit. If you think that way, your brain is simply wired the wrong way and you'll be here on this sinking ship that's bleeding subs telling the frigging botters to go run LFR so you have people to pug with, so the queues for everything don't take forever. And you will deserve it.

This is such a better system then the current one. Because LFR isn't content. It's a sleepwalk. It is so much more fun to just get killed in LFR then to actually participate. The fight will get done in the same amount of time with or without you. There are no mechanics. There is no communication. It's a single player experience. It doesn't teach you how to raid because it teaches you that there are no consequences, that your input doesn't matter, that if you or another player just goes AFK the boss will still die and you'll still get loot. Daily quests don't teach you how to play your class, they teach you the fastest route between quest giver and objective and back.

5 man dungeons there is at least the possibility to communicate without anything you say getting swept up by 24 other people bitching that they didn't get loot.

Seriously, this game is ass backwards. How the hell can someone say that "Oh you got to skip TIERS AND TIERS OF CONTENT WHAH WAH WAH" and then suggest that the LFR version is content. Seriously? If your beef was that people got to skip content, THEY STILL DO! THey just have to queue for an hour and then sleepwalk through content that's less challenging and interesting then a 5 man heroic mode for 7 weeks before they can do the new stuff.

The uber gating method of this expansion is beyond retarded. It lowers the pool of people available to pug current raids. It offers no benefit to anyone aside from psychopathic douchecanoes who need other people to have a miserable time to feel good about their achievements in a fucking video game. I mean you guys are sitting here defending the choices they have made so they can deliver LESS GAME to you. That is why there is gating, that is why there are no catch-up mechanics, thats why everything from doing a profession, to getting gear, to wiping your ass takes a 5-day daily quest grind, 4 weeks of valor grinding, and 5 LFR queues with no drops to get done.

Because they're trying to spend less money and make less game. And you guys are defending it

[Shahad]

All your graph shows is that after a few months of 4.3 subscriptions fell to just above nine million. So, if we accept that subscription numbers can accurately gauge the success of relevant models (which neither you or Crashdummy have proven) then it has to be said that 4.3's catch up dungeons did little to sustain subscriptions as people came back-did what they had to do-and left.

Personally I don't think using sub numbers is very meaningful, but since you two were discussing it I thought I might as well provide accurate data for everyone.

[Jayehn]

Anybody who says LFR is a reliable way to gear up is full of it. Even with the increase to drop rates I managed to run three characters though all the wings they could (total of 14 wings) and only found one upgrade. I know they doubled the chance for loot to drop but this is beyond fucking frustrating to have gear acquisition be so goddamn random. I'm fucking tired of having a chance after a boss kill for something.

This is one of the big reasons people shit all over D3 when they hit endgame. An upgrade could drop in one hour or it could drop in 1000, but every time that piece doesn't it just piles on the frustration.

[Thelxi]

It sucks that alts are hit in the face with huge weekly lockouts and timesinks yes, but there is a way around it. Honor gear can bring you up to 476, and with the 522 valor necklace + 1 run of all the LFRs you can very easily hit 480 in a week. If you get very unlucky with drops, do the treasure cove scenario thing on thunder island for charms, I got 19 charms and a 502 belt from my first run.

My recently dinged pala went from 458 ilvl to 483 in a couple of days, so at least there is a way now albeit sneaky through pvp.

[Mordredofmia]

It sucks that alts are hit in the face with huge weekly lockouts and timesinks yes, but there is a way around it. Honor gear can bring you up to 476, and with the 522 valor necklace + 1 run of all the LFRs you can very easily hit 480 in a week. If you get very unlucky with drops, do the treasure cove scenario thing on thunder island for charms, I got 19 charms and a 502 belt from my first run.

My recently dinged pala went from 458 ilvl to 483 in a couple of days, so at least there is a way now albeit sneaky through pvp.

Isn't needing to do PVP to PVE kinda..fucking stupid?

Like if I have no interest in PVP and just wanna PVE why should I need to go buy PVP gear and do PVP just to get into PVE?

[Deleted]

Anybody who says LFR is a reliable way to gear up is full of it. Even with the increase to drop rates I managed to run three characters though all the wings they could (total of 14 wings) and only found one upgrade. I know they doubled the chance for loot to drop but this is beyond fucking frustrating to have gear acquisition be so goddamn random. I'm fucking tired of having a chance after a boss kill for something.

This is one of the big reasons people shit all over D3 when they hit endgame. An upgrade could drop in one hour or it could drop in 1000, but every time that piece doesn't it just piles on the frustration.

What about the VP earned from those unlucky LFR runs? Could that, perhaps, not have bought you some upgrades? I mean lets put things into context here; Ha of Anger drops 476 boots and the new Shado -Pan faction has a 522 necklace which can be bought immediately. Assuming an ilvl of 440 or thereabouts when you ding in each socket you are about ilvl 447. Each new piece of the half price VP gear, providing all your sockets remain at a static 440, would increase a further 3 ilvls making the unluckiest person in the world, who receives no LFR gear, does no PvP, can't get into a normal group, cannot afford BoEs or crafted items, would take about 11 weeks to reach 480. That's the difference between the endgame of WoW and Diablo 3; if it's taking you too long to gear up then there are things you are not doing to help you gear up.

[fengosa]

I just recently dinged my rogue(alt) to 90 and after I finished doing the Klaxxi dailies I cancelled my sub. I'm not doing the golden lotus dailies ever again, that was some of the most boring and poorly designed shit i have ever played in my life. There is just far too much gating in the game. The rep gating of valor rewards at the start was absolutely unacceptable and the lack of catch-up dungeons in the plan for Mists just doesn't give me any incentive to keep paying $15 a month so I can run LFR over and over and over again. It's stupid.

In Wraith, my character hit 80, had enough gear to run into heroics. Then I did heroics until I had enough gear to get into a VOA or ICC Pug. Then I got to have fun playing the current content with everyone else. I didn't have to allocate an hour or more a day to do dailies, I didn't have to allocate two or more hours(queue plus raid) to run LFR to get my once a week chance at increasing my ilvl. I didn't have to run a myriad of poorly designed daily quests to spend my valor points, which back there didn't trickle in worthlessly and emblems of frost felt important and valuable to spend. don't understand the mindset of some many elitist miserable snobs on this forum. Why does the game have to be a tedious bore? Why do you need other people to suffer through some miserable bullshit so your achievements have merit. If you think that way, your brain is simply wired the wrong way and you'll be here on this sinking ship that's bleeding subs telling the frigging botters to go run LFR so you have people to pug with, so the queues for everything don't take forever. And you will deserve it.

This is such a better system then the current one. Because LFR isn't content. It's a sleepwalk. It is so much more fun to just get killed in LFR then to actually participate. The fight will get done in the same amount of time with or without you. There are no mechanics. There is no communication. It's a single player experience. It doesn't teach you how to raid because it teaches you that there are no consequences, that your input doesn't matter, that if you or another player just goes AFK the boss will still die and you'll still get loot. Daily quests don't teach you how to play your class, they teach you the fastest route between quest giver and objective and back.

5 man dungeons there is at least the possibility to communicate without anything you say getting swept up by 24 other people bitching that they didn't get loot.

Seriously, this game is ass backwards. How the hell can someone say that "Oh you got to skip TIERS AND TIERS OF CONTENT WHAH WAH WAH" and then suggest that the LFR version is content. Seriously? If your beef was that people got to skip content, THEY STILL DO! THey just have to queue for an hour and then sleepwalk through content that's less challenging and interesting then a 5 man heroic mode for 7 weeks before they can do the new stuff.

The uber gating method of this expansion is beyond retarded. It lowers the pool of people available to pug current raids. It offers no benefit to anyone aside from psychopathic douchecanoes who need other people to have a miserable time to feel good about their achievements in a fucking video game. I mean you guys are sitting here defending the choices they have made so they can deliver LESS GAME to you. That is why there is gating, that is why there are no catch-up mechanics, thats why everything from doing a profession, to getting gear, to wiping your ass takes a 5-day daily quest grind, 4 weeks of valor grinding, and 5 LFR queues with no drops to get done.

Because they're trying to spend less money and make less game. And you guys are defending it

Wait, LFR is boring and easy but 5 mans are great content? Not sure I follow that one. It's also a little strange that you bring up content difficulty but don't bring up doing normal modes for gear. It's the quickest and easiest way to gear up.

[Leonard McCoy]

.

Because they're trying to spend less money and make less game. And you guys are defending it

And the developers are asking me to do more with less. It's disgusting. People are defending it but that isn't surprising.

[Shahad]

Wait, LFR is boring and easy but 5 mans are great content? Not sure I follow that one. It's also a little strange that you bring up content difficulty but don't bring up doing normal modes for gear. It's the quickest and easiest way to gear up.

Dungeons are actually enjoyable though. Since there's much less people than LFR it's much more personal, so you can actually interract with the people in there. I've made quite a few friends in LFD. LFR doesn't allow that as the only people saying anything are childish fucks that would be kicked out of my LFD groups but who are simply too numerous to get completely rid of in LFR.

[HardCoder]

Guys, it looks like you've never played another MMOs at their endgame. Compared to them, WoW gring is really nothing.

[snip]

That is really all you need to do. Compared to any other MMO game nowadays, it is really nothing in terms of time spent/reward gained.

Why is "any other MMO game nowadays" relevant? Any other MMO game nowadays is 1/5th, 1/10th, 1/50th the size of WoW. One thing for sure, other MMOs are NOT good examples of what people want.

[Leonard McCoy]

Dungeons are actually enjoyable though. Since there's much less people than LFR it's much more personal, so you can actually interract with the people in there. I've made quite a few friends in LFD. LFR doesn't allow that as the only people saying anything are childish fucks that would be kicked out of my LFD groups but who are simply too numerous to get completely rid of in LFR.

I met lots of great players doing dungeons and lfd. In fact that's how I found the raiding guild I was with for years and the group of players who I came to consider friends. A small tight knight group of us who ran dungeons even when they were "Hard" in cataclysm and had a blast doing it. That group fell apart in mists, although I still try and stay in touch.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 08:48 PM ----------

Why is "any other MMO game nowadays" relevant? Any other MMO game nowadays is 1/5th, 1/10th, 1/50th the size of WoW. One thing for sure, other MMOs are NOT good examples of what people want.

Furthermore wow got where it was by being less mmo than other mmos. People have no clue some days I swear.

[HardCoder]

Dungeons are actually enjoyable though. Since there's much less people than LFR it's much more personal, so you can actually interract with the people in there. I've made quite a few friends in LFD. LFR doesn't allow that as the only people saying anything are childish fucks that would be kicked out of my LFD groups but who are simply too numerous to get completely rid of in LFR.

This is true. Although there are plenty of LFD groups where people are unpleasant, you do also get groups that are a whole bunch of fun for one reason or another.

I'm not complaining about the LFR "experience" because on the average these days it's not so bad, the ragers are less frequent, et cetera, but with 25 people many of whom are in a hurry, you just won't have one of those random fun chatty instances. It's really about the gear and the game and not at all about the people.