4 P + O-P Helm v.s. 2P + O-P Helm, Chest, & Shoulders

[Travex]

What is the consensus here, 4p w/ off-piece helm or the latter, for BiS T15 SMF Fury (BiS Warrior dps)

[Xanthan]

What is the consensus here, 4p w/ off-piece helm or the latter, for BiS T15 SMF Fury (BiS Warrior dps)

For BiS? Completing the 4pc, no question.

[Deleted]

For heroic content you're better of getting the chest from ra-den.

For normal however I'm fairly sure you will get more dps out of the legs from lei shen as it got better sockets and fairly more crit than the tier one.

And well as Travex says, you should never ever skip the tier bonuses.

[Brakthir]

For heroic content you're better of getting the chest from ra-den.

For normal however I'm fairly sure you will get more dps out of the legs from lei shen as it got better sockets and fairly more crit than the tier one.

And well as Travex says, you should never ever skip the tier bonuses.

Actually somewhat untrue. Right now, there are two camps, which is 4pc with offset Ra-Den chest, and 2pc with offpiece helm/shoulders/chest.

[Mataru]

I think 4 piece will be the way to go, possibly with glyph of recklessness when you get enough crit from gear.

[Brakthir]

I think 4 piece will be the way to go, possibly with glyph of recklessness when you get enough crit from gear.

Won't be true till atleast T16 heroic, if then.

[Recke]

I think 4 piece will be the way to go, possibly with glyph of recklessness when you get enough crit from gear.

Glyph of Recklessness isn't really away to go if you want to maximize your damage in burst, which is pretty much how it is used.
Also, you sacrifice easily 3k worth of Crit, (not to mention force yourself to go way over base hit values), which added together, it's hard to imagine skullbanner granting bonus crit will change anything, unless you are at 35% crit, where reck/banner will be 100% crit for bursts. But, other than that, I don't see it as toon strong of a tier bonus.

I personally see 2 piece recommended, due to stats, but than 3 offpiece will be the most beneficial. I really don't want to give up double upgraded t14 pieces.

[Travex]

GAH, not a single person in agreement. Has anyone run the sims?

[Recke]

GAH, not a single person in agreement. Has anyone run the sims?

Another thing you should consider is that tier won't be Thunderforged, if I recall correctly. The nontier offpieces being 541 instead of 535 (in BiS) will be granting you more stats than the tier counterpart. It's really whether having 2 core items and 1 semicore item level increase vs the 4 piece bonus. (I say core because Helm/Chest are "core" with highest base stats on it, shoulders are semicore with less stats than helm/chest/legs but more than bracers/cloak/ring/neck).

[Mataru]

Looks more like 1500 crit rating difference to me, between legs + hands 2piece and 4piece with helm offpiece. And that's using Ra-den chest with all crit gems. Also as worgen with BS/JC it is possible to have around 40% crit just from gear. Add in 5% crit buff and proc from gaze of twins and you should be hovering around 50% crit most of the time. I don't know the uptime of the trinket yet, but seems reasonable that you should have 1 stack up a lot of the time at least. 4piece skull banner + glyph of reck would provide 53% extra crit during skull banner, leaving you with anywhere from 95% to a little overcapped on crit during your highest burst window. Seeing most ppl wont have the combo of heroic thunderforged, worgen, crit professions and TG weapons, it is unlikely they will overcap by much with 4piece during skull banner.

Seems to be it stand between having slightly higher stats and 2-3% more crit constantly vs having 100% ish crit during skull banner. For the really high end players who can get Ra-den loot and other heroic thunderforged pieces, depending on gaze proc uptime, you might end up over 50% crit most of the time, and 2piece would probably be the way to go. For most people I think 4piece with offpiece helm will be the way to go although I have no math or proof to back this up, other than some rough stat comparisons. A lot will depend on the Gaze of the Twins trinket.

[AizenSosuske]

For crit ONLY to get the most crit pre Ra-Den your offpiece is the gloves. as far as my math goes.
I just looked at the crit changes between all tier and non pieces and the biggest gap was the gloves

[Mataru]

Even if you gem full crit on the non-tier gloves, helm as offpiece still comes out with slightly more crit on my chardev profile.

Every tier slot actually has an offpiece with more crit than its tier counterpart, but helm offpiece seems to give the highest amount of STR, crit and mastery.

[Recke]

Looks more like 1500 crit rating difference to me, between legs + hands 2piece and 4piece with helm offpiece. And that's using Ra-den chest with all crit gems. Also as worgen with BS/JC it is possible to have around 40% crit just from gear. Add in 5% crit buff and proc from gaze of twins and you should be hovering around 50% crit most of the time. I don't know the uptime of the trinket yet, but seems reasonable that you should have 1 stack up a lot of the time at least. 4piece skull banner + glyph of reck would provide 53% extra crit during skull banner, leaving you with anywhere from 95% to a little overcapped on crit during your highest burst window. Seeing most ppl wont have the combo of heroic thunderforged, worgen, crit professions and TG weapons, it is unlikely they will overcap by much with 4piece during skull banner.

Seems to be it stand between having slightly higher stats and 2-3% more crit constantly vs having 100% ish crit during skull banner. For the really high end players who can get Ra-den loot and other heroic thunderforged pieces, depending on gaze proc uptime, you might end up over 50% crit most of the time, and 2piece would probably be the way to go. For most people I think 4piece with offpiece helm will be the way to go although I have no math or proof to back this up, other than some rough stat comparisons. A lot will depend on the Gaze of the Twins trinket.

Crown of Golden Golem has 1118 crit where as the tier helm has none.
Talonrender Chestplate has 1006 crit where as the tier chest has none.
Carapace of the Core has 1157 crit where as the tier chest has none.
Shoulderguards of Centripetal Destruction has 953 crit where as tier has none.
Shoulder/Chest lose 1 red socket, so 640 crit at most, assuming nonRa-Den. RaDen could be 960 crit the same as the tier chest, so that's null-void.

Looks like 2118 to me (1% more crit), and that's not including the fact that chest/shoulders can be thunderforged heroic, providing a bit more boost. Not to mention that the pieces you have 1138+684 expertise, which pretty much caps you, provided you aren't using Ra-Den's Boots, Primordius's Ring, Primordius Cloak. (Mind you, I'm taking into account Orc Racial and best 2hander being an axe). And for what? 35% crit for 10 seconds over 180seconds? That's less than 2% crit per second over the 3 minutes. Not taking it is at least 3% crit gained. Well, that's where the debate comes into question in the first place. having that 35% bonus (that you would never stack with recklessness past 35% base crit) provides an okay burst bonus, but depending on the length of the fight, will fail in comparison to overall better crit/enrage uptime/etc (ie, ends after 2nd/3rd banners cd, it'll be important. Ends before 2nd/3rd banner is available, not as useful). I'd also like to see how much burst you get after the pull in a 9 minute fight till pot/double trinket proc/cd execute phase.

[Vantricular]

LOL @ ppl talking about getting Ra-den gear. are you guys serious right now? just stick 4 piece and stop dreaming of what you MIGHT have 2 months from now

[Mataru]

Crown of Golden Golem has 1118 crit where as the tier helm has none.
Talonrender Chestplate has 1006 crit where as the tier chest has none.
Carapace of the Core has 1157 crit where as the tier chest has none.
Shoulderguards of Centripetal Destruction has 953 crit where as tier has none.
Shoulder/Chest lose 1 red socket, so 640 crit at most, assuming nonRa-Den. RaDen could be 960 crit the same as the tier chest, so that's null-void.

Looks like 2118 to me (1% more crit), and that's not including the fact that chest/shoulders can be thunderforged heroic, providing a bit more boost. Not to mention that the pieces you have 1138+684 expertise, which pretty much caps you, provided you aren't using Ra-Den's Boots, Primordius's Ring, Primordius Cloak. (Mind you, I'm taking into account Orc Racial and best 2hander being an axe). And for what? 35% crit for 10 seconds over 180seconds? That's less than 2% crit per second over the 3 minutes. Not taking it is at least 3% crit gained. Well, that's where the debate comes into question in the first place. having that 35% bonus (that you would never stack with recklessness past 35% base crit) provides an okay burst bonus, but depending on the length of the fight, will fail in comparison to overall better crit/enrage uptime/etc (ie, ends after 2nd/3rd banners cd, it'll be important. Ends before 2nd/3rd banner is available, not as useful). I'd also like to see how much burst you get after the pull in a 9 minute fight till pot/double trinket proc/cd execute phase.

You aren't taking reforging into account on those tier and off-piece comparisons. If you set up 4piece with helm off-piece, vs 2piece hands and legs, fully gemmed and reforged, the difference is 6485 crit vs 7838 crit, granted this is non-thunderforged on shoulders and helm, so we can round off to 6500 vs 8000. 1500 crit rating difference, or 2.5%. 4piece combo also provides more STR if u gem all crit in the Ra-Den chest, which I what I had to do to get to 1500 higher crit.

Now I'm *edit: not* claiming to be right here, I'm just not convinced foregoing 4piece for MOST raiders is the best choice. It comes down to having at most 2.5% more crit throughout the fight, or having 20-25% more crit during Skull Banner burst and some 8 seconds of extra, though weakened, reck when skull banner is over.

I don't understand why it's so unthinkable to use glyph of reck if you are close to 50% crit without cooldowns, especially if you have someone else applying sunder armor. Glyphed reck and 4piece skull banner lets you stack these cooldowns even in full heroic gear. You MIGHT overcap depending on trinket proc.

I might add that my perspective is from that of an average 10man raid. I am the only warrior, so I don't have to stagger my Skull banner and can always use it together with reck. I will likely not even see Ra-den this tier, let alone get gear from him, and thunderforged versions of loot is really rare.

[Recke]

You aren't taking reforging into account on those tier and off-piece comparisons. If you set up 4piece with helm off-piece, vs 2piece hands and legs, fully gemmed and reforged, the difference is 6485 crit vs 7838 crit, granted this is non-thunderforged on shoulders and helm, so we can round off to 6500 vs 8000. 1500 crit rating difference, or 2.5%. 4piece combo also provides more STR if u gem all crit in the Ra-Den chest, which I what I had to do to get to 1500 higher crit.

Party a(2p with 3 offpieces). Party b(4pcwith helm off tier).
Helm : Helm stats the same since it's the offtier for 4piece.
Chest : 1006+390. vs 1138exp909haste. Crit/Hit vs Exp/Haste. Stat weights
Shoudler: 953+622 vs 684/855
I have written a bunch of gibberish here cuz I'm really tired and lost my though.

Now I'm claiming to be right here, I'm just not convinced foregoing 4piece for MOST raiders is the best choice. It comes down to having at most 2.5% more crit throughout the fight, or having 20-25% more crit during Skull Banner burst and some 8 seconds of extra, though weakened, reck when skull banner is over. Like the ticket to the show you bought tucked safely under you carseat until you realize you car is actually a Lazyboy vehicle cpable. I provides a step in the right diection, but you are saying that you should forgo bursts to attain a heigher warrior dps/class/race'
I don't understand why it's so unthinkable to use glyph of reck if you are close to 50% crit without cooldowns, especially if you have someone else applying sunder armor. Glyphed reck and 4piece skull banner lets you stack these cooldowns even in full heroic gear. You MIGHT overcap depending on trinket proc.
Another thing, I may have an out the normal mindset, but that doesn't mean you can try lock me down or hit on me.
I might add that my perspective is from that of an average 10man raid. I am the only warrior, so I don't have to stagger my Skull banner and can always use it together with reck. I will likely not even see Ra-den this tier, let alone get gear from him, and thunderforged versions of loot is really rare.

[Swaggah]

While I do think this is interesting especially since I run a 25man and chaining banners could mean 4pc possibly be better for the first warrior but worse for the second and/or the third warrior ( if you have that)

Comparing stats liek that means nothing, since any value rises conciderably during cd's
Would've done some testing with simcraft if I wasn't fuck all terrible at writing lines, and my knowledge only goes as far as checking boxes

But arguing like that will only cause players to read the thread and get the wrong idea

[Jalopy]

I was unaware a "no 4pc" camp even existed.

[Mataru]

First of all in my previous post it was supposed to say "I'm NOT claiming to be right", in case that caused some misunderstanding. That being said, your last post didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Party a(2p with 3 offpieces). Party b(4pcwith helm off tier).
Helm : Helm stats the same since it's the offtier for 4piece.
Chest : 1006+390. vs 1138exp909haste. Crit/Hit vs Exp/Haste. Stat weights
Shoudler: 953+622 vs 684/855
I have written a bunch of gibberish here cuz I'm really tired and lost my though.

I am fully aware that the offpiece items are better itemized, that is the only reason one would consider not using 4piece in the first place. You have exaggerated the difference though, first saying that 2piece gives "at least 3000 crit rating more" when in fact it is around half that.

Like the ticket to the show you bought tucked safely under you carseat until you realize you car is actually a Lazyboy vehicle cpable. I provides a step in the right diection, but you are saying that you should forgo bursts to attain a heigher warrior dps/class/race'

I have no idea what that analogy is supposed to mean, and no, I am not arguing for forgoing burst, rather the exact opposite. The argument for 2piece is that you have 2.5% more crit during the length of the fight, as well as a little better itemized stats, but you never reach to towards 100% crit during burst. It is with 4piece that you gain the greater burst, since you can attain 100% crit during skull banner, but are left with slightly lower stats the rest of the fight.

Of course, even with 2piece and 70-80% crit during burst, with a little luck you can still crit all your abilities, or you can end up critting 1 of 4 executes during CS with cooldowns. Honestly it seems really close to me, you would probably get more extra crits on average with 2 piece, but more crit during cooldowns with 4piece.

With reports of Rppm trinkets like Gaze and Talisman rarely stacking above 1 stack, I think it's pretty safe to say you won't crit cap during skull banner, even in full BiS, if you use glyphed reck.

[Recke]

First of all in my previous post it was supposed to say "I'm NOT claiming to be right", in case that caused some misunderstanding. That being said, your last post didn't make a lot of sense to me.


I am fully aware that the offpiece items are better itemized, that is the only reason one would consider not using 4piece in the first place. You have exaggerated the difference though, first saying that 2piece gives "at least 3000 crit rating more" when in fact it is around half that.

But, if Crit = Strength (approximately for Fury), then having 1500 less crit is like having 1500 less strength. The only crit you'd be etting that you won't get is 2 gems (640 ignoring socket bonuses) and 40% of the base stats (400x2), so, yes, I didn't take into consideration of reforge, however you are still throwing out a lot of damage just to get 4piece which would only be worth 2% crit in a fight unless a) the cooldowns line up for it to have just gone on cd/ended duration on the fight. Or if you burst during that rotation accounts for a huge chunk of your damage. Looking at logs, the only time this would be truly notable dps gain overall is if you use it for an aoe, which usually means you are holding it, OR if you have a buff going on (35% bonus crit is nice but it's still not 100% so you can not "miss" a crit on heavy skills making it less valuable.) And once again, this isn't including the Thunderforged Heroic offpieces, which are notches above normal mode, so ~120 crit and 120 strength, not including other stats. You are right that it's not 3000 crit, but it's a significant value.

As for reaching crit cap, the only time is if you have 4 piece and use banner+recklessness at the same time. By the time you get 4piece, unless you've been just taking any plate dps gear that drops, you should be at or near 35%, where it would then be beneficial to split it.