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  1. #21
    This is just blowing the issue out of proporition. WOW story moves in spurts, and you only get a few times a year really to show what is happening. You can't cram every fucking race there is into that kind of format, it would just come out contrived and all over the place with too many characters. At best, Draenei since TBC should have had a quest hub possibly in WOTLK or a bigger presence in the war with the Scourge as elite paladins, and a quest hub or two in Cata.

    Worgen? That's barely even happened in WOW time. It just happened last week basically. You need to actually count the number of opportunities we've had for X race's lore since they were introduced, you people act as if they've been ignored and passed over forever and ever and ever all because of 3-4 years worth of WOW time.
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  2. #22
    I love this post. And tbh I like the Lawfull Good way the Alliance is being potrayed. But more enhancement on that and more diversity towards races - sure.

  3. #23
    I did ready half of each topic, and skipped the rest because I realized that they are great points that would result in a rain of whining of the majority of Alliance players if taken into consideration.

    There is a reason why Alliance and Horde are so different at this aspect: the majority of the players on each faction actually like the present characteristics of their factions.If they made Alliance as variable culturally as Horde a lot of players would come complain. They LIKE the single-minded way, because it give them the illusion of being "the good guys".

  4. #24
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    I think this whole topic is a matter of perspective. To me it's the actions of the races, more than their dogma, that define them.

    Night Elves and Tauren both fiercely defend the balance of nature and seek a harmony (even to the point where ). They feel very similar to me. The Tauren may mention their ancestors a lot, but their primary worship is still the Earthmother unless something has changed. The Night Elves primarily worship Elune, which is associated with the larger moon (Tauren eye of the Earthmother) and also considered the mother of Azaroth by her worshipers.

    To me the rest have their own unique and interesting identities. The only exception, for me, being Gnomes. They feel more like a steampunk addition than a race steeped in their own lore within the world. There was the thing with mechagnomes in wrath, which would have been interesting if it wasn't a repeat of the earthen lore with the dwarves.

    Ultimately, different people find different things interesting. I do find the Horde races interesting, but nothing is as exciting to me as dwarven lore. Their culture speaks to me better than any of the others.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Balthalzar View Post
    (Warning, long post not gunna lie )
    TLDR: You either cool and dark angsty rebel like me (Horde) or you're plain casual because you're not into cool dark angsty rebellions and order is boring (Alliance). Please redo boring Alliance order into more cool and angsty rebels, because if I enjoy rebels more than order, everyone must do the same!

    Did I get it right?

    No, thank you. I always enjoyed Alliance's truly heroic storyline much more than Horde's (except for WC3, where they're both cool) and the only thing that bothers me is illogical victories of Horde due to plot armor.
    Last edited by rowaasr13; 2013-03-15 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    TLDR: You either cool and dark angsty rebel like me (Horde) or you're plain casual because you're not into cool dark angsty rebellions and order is boring (Alliance). Please redo boring Alliance order into more cool and angsty rebels, because if I enjoy rebels more than order, everyone must do the same!

    Did I get it right?

    No, thank you. I always enjoyed Alliance's truly heroic storyline much more than Horde's (except for WC3, where they're both cool) and the only thing that bothers me is illogical victories of Horde due to plot armor.
    While I like the things the OP had written I couldn't help but notice what you wrote. I am pretty sure the dude is a horde player.

    If I had my way:

    Alliance:
    Humans
    Worgen
    Wildhammer dwarves/The Bronzebeard dwarves
    Blood Elves (never understood their departure much, having Garithos spewing racist crap and endangering BE lives (not an entire nation btw - just some in an army) does not form a reason to switch to the horde. If that were true, the alliance would consist of only humans.
    Gnomes
    Taurens
    Pandaran

    I'll elaborate on the Tauren. The only reason they are with the horde is due to Thralls actions (which were very good). But Tauren are a very peacefull people. So why join a "warlike horde"? If anything they should have been Neutral or Alliance. Why the Alliance? The Alliance is there to fend of alien invaders. Orcs are Aliens, the Burning Legion are aliens. They would be defending their world united with it's native people. Orcs under Thrall they turned out to be the good guys. But I am sure that if Uther with a knight army came across the Tauren that day instead of Thrall, the Tauren would have taken another path.

    If I looked at the story we underwent during leveling and from what I know at the moment of Pandaren Lore, I see no reason to have them "choose". They are an Alliance race. Everything about them tells me that. They do not have to "hate" the horde so viciously as the humans do.

    Horde:
    Dark Iron Dwarves
    Draenei - I am pretty sure that if Thrall offererd a peace offering and accepted Velen's judgement and council, these warcrimes could have been forgiven on the fact that Orcs are a childrace vs the Draenei. The Orcs were deceived and the Draenei know this. There should be room for forgiveness.
    Orcs
    Trolls
    Goblins
    Night Elves

    Night Elves: since they are so feral and nature loving, this would fit perfectly with the horde. I am sure that if they join they could more easily provide the horde with resources without damaging the forest = profit for both. The elves used to have no love for the humans afaik. And they worked very well together during WCIII in the end. This would also mean the Horde would have their pretty race.

    Forsaken: Cannot be in the horde or alliance. And what is this about revenge on the alliance as the OP wrote. Avenge for what? The Alliance didn't create them. They were a part of the Alliance. Why should they hate the Alliance? Sure they are the undead etc. What about Death Knights then? The concept of accepting those would be the same as the forsaken wouldn't it? So either they rejoin the Alliance for god knows what reason...or they try to live their "lifes" in peace as a neutral faction. A remnant of the Lich Kings Power.

    In this balance we have:

    (from vanilla onwards) Dwarf Priests on either side haha
    Both have paladins
    Both have shamans (BE could still be paladins since we have the Tauren on the Alliance side and that "brute race")
    Lorewise it could work.

    Forsaken is left out. But I really don't see the point of them at all except an unwelcome reminder of the Lich King.

  7. #27
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    Humans are *not* Lawful Good, heck a fair bunch of them are borderline Lawful Neutral, forcing their views on others etc.

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  8. #28
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    Why is the Horde the favoured Faction?
    Game wise better racials for PVE and PVP. Personal experiences suggest they actually work as a team for PVP and have some gear IMO. Also much better development in Cataclysm Revamped Zones, most zones Horde triumphs or Character Development, whilst the Alliance is always on the back foot or loosing with practically no Racial Leaders playing a role. Furthermore Mists of Pandaria is focused on Garrosh, and although they say they want to give some attention to the Alliance, the current state of the Horde makes it much more interesting than the Alliance due to Vol'jin, Lorthermar and possibly Sylvanas' roles.

    Furthermore Thrall and Cairne were much loved Characters in Warcraft 3, and with them both appearing in the Horde many players may have felt more interested.

    In terms of Identity, the Alliance has none. It's mainly Humans, with most other races ignored or forgotten about (Don't care for Gnomes either way). We see a lot of Character Development, especially at the moment in Vol'jin, the state of the Darkspear Tribe, Lorthermar's Personality and Role, and even Baine and Garrosh have played a part so far in Mists. Only Sylvanas and Gallywix have yet to show, and I expect Sylvanas to appear and Gallywix to be a SoOrg Boss. For the Alliance, where the hell is the Council of Three Hammers, Genn and Mettatorke? They have said Velen will show up, and Tyrande atm has had practically a cameo in a scenario
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  9. #29
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    Are we talking about faction identity or racial identity? Because if it's about faction identity, I would say that on the contrary, Alliance has a pretty strong identity. The fact that most Alliance races are practionners of the Light strengthens Alliance identity. It was indeed strongly suggested right in the beginning of WoW, when Paladins were Alliance and Shaman were Horde. The Alliance stands for Order, high (even rigid) ethics and ideals of civilization (which does not mean that all individuals live up to those ideals). Of course, all Alliance races will share those traits in some ways. Identity of the faction comes from what its different races share in common. In a way, it is harder to define the Horde. Like Wrathion said : a bunch of raiders stopping at nothing to make themselves a place in the world, a refuge for the down-trodden, or an alliance of convenience?

    In fact, the OP arguments convinced me that the Alliance has a clearer identity than the Horde.

    Now about racial identity. I'll admit that Horde races are more original than Alliance's races. That does not mean that they have no identity, though. Humans may look bland because they are us, human. Further more, they are inspired by medieval western Europe, and most gamers are Westerners (at least on these forums). So, yeah, they are less original and exotic than Orcs or Draenei. That does not change the fact they are pretty much different from other races.

    Same with the dwarves. They are based on the traditional way to depict dwarves in modern fantasy and are mythical creatures from Norse mythology. They are roughly based on Celtic/Germanic cultures, both western european cultures. So of course, their vibe will be close to humans. It can be explained though by the close relationship the two races had for millenia.

    Of course, I would like to see each race have more attention. We have had enough about Orcs, Humans, Forsaken and Trolls. Let the others have their time in the light.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Yig View Post
    This is just blowing the issue out of proporition. WOW story moves in spurts, and you only get a few times a year really to show what is happening. You can't cram every fucking race there is into that kind of format, it would just come out contrived and all over the place with too many characters. At best, Draenei since TBC should have had a quest hub possibly in WOTLK or a bigger presence in the war with the Scourge as elite paladins, and a quest hub or two in Cata.

    Worgen? That's barely even happened in WOW time. It just happened last week basically. You need to actually count the number of opportunities we've had for X race's lore since they were introduced, you people act as if they've been ignored and passed over forever and ever and ever all because of 3-4 years worth of WOW time.

    Or you could compare them with their respective races.

    Draenei v Blood Elves, who have been more active? They've had the exact same screen time, yet Draenei have done virtually nothing other than offer some guidance to the Humans. They're so neutral that even the Alliance thought they left.

    Worgen v Goblins. Worgen get a tree ontop of a tree, with a half finished story, while Goblins get an entire zone.


    It's not blown out of proportion, it's simple analytical comparison. If you give person A £200, and person B £5 over 8 years, you don't say person B is over reacting. It's the simple rules of fairness.

    If either Goblins or Blood Elves had done nothing either, I might be more inclined to agree with your points. As it is, Blood Elves have become one of the dominant races in the Horde, and Goblins are consistantly mentioned and depicted in the story. Draenei are sparse and few between, and the brief glimpses we do see of them they aren't acting like Draenei. They're acting like Humans, or advising Humans. We don't see their unique culture. And Worgen at this point are just a joke. Until Blizzard addresses the issues of Gilneas, they'll be in constant stagnation.

  11. #31
    I think the ironforge dwarves have a bit of an identity in that it seems of all the dwarves, they're the ones most interested in researching about the Titans, history and archeology. The Explorer's League is an Ironforge organization, etc. But ultimately the IF dwarves havn't gotten much focus post Shattering.

    Night Elves I agree. They neutered the night elves plain and simple. Blizz really owes it to the night elves to give them something badass. 5.1 was just pitiful. Once again orcs kill night elves, and the horde even manages to sneak a magical artifact out of Darnassus fairly easily via dalaran, and Tyrande was just used as a plot device to show off how wise and patient Varian is becoming.

    Draenei I feel their identity issues only come from lack of time devoted to them, and I have a feeling next expansion may see them getting some work like the belfs got in 5.1/2.

    Worgen need more attention too, and I feel their problems are like the draeneis. Not a lack of identity, but lack of screen time. DOesn't help that the second half of their story only horde got to see.

    Gnomes I would argue DO have a distinct identity, in their eccentric ways. Even with goblins being an engineering counterpart in the Horde I feel both of these races still feel distinct and unique.

    Pandaren are a neutral race, so any problems or lack there of apply to both factions here.

    The big problem in MOP is that the main three Alliance characters being developed are all human. Varian, Jaina and Anduin. Now I like the development all three are getting. But none of the other races are getting much, beyond "Tyrande is rash and needs to be shown a lesson in patience," and "hey dwarves like to dig, let's give them this dig site." While the Horde are getting an epic story involving the stories of its individual races and how they cope with a mad warchief going off the hinges, the Alliance is a little 'too' united in that the humans have taken the reigns and the other races left in the dust.

    Ultimately, I don't think that it's a problem of identity, but screen time. In MOP the spot light is actually being shared around a bit, where as all the big attention for the Alliance is on humans and to an extent high elves which aren't even playable. (And one big reason people like me keep asking for them. Darn it blizz if you're going to shove them down our throats just let us play them already!)

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 01:19 PM ----------

    The exception being the night elves. They keep getting attention, all of it bad to the point blizz even named the NElf base achievement in A Little Patience "I used to like them."

  12. #32
    Deleted
    An excellent read and I nearly agree with all of it. Except for The Blood Elves in The Alliance. As much as I didn't like the Blood Elves joining my beloved Horde and was one of the people who cried "Horde paladins, Horde Elves!? GG Blizz you've ruined The Horde." I must say they've slotted in quite nicely and added a much needed new dynamic to The Horde. Yes the pretty Dranaei's could have happened but another reason why the belfs joined the Horde was territory. Horde needed someone else to join them in the EK and Que'lthalas is located just north of the now forsaken occupied Lordearon. The lore with them joining The Horde fits better than it would have done with The Alliance especially since the humans who fought with them before are now forsaken and obviously we have Sylvanas to sweeten the deal.

    But everything else I agree 100% The night elves need to grow some god-damn balls and do things their own way and the entirety of The Alliance needs to distance itself from Stormwind a bit. Moira is the perfect catalyst for some Alliance tension and Blizzard could work many things with her, bring the worgens savagery to light which you have mentioned and a bit of discent to humans running everything from the other races.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    While I like the things the OP had written I couldn't help but notice what you wrote. I am pretty sure the dude is a horde player.

    If I had my way:

    Alliance:
    Humans
    Worgen
    Wildhammer dwarves/The Bronzebeard dwarves
    Blood Elves (never understood their departure much, having Garithos spewing racist crap and endangering BE lives (not an entire nation btw - just some in an army) does not form a reason to switch to the horde. If that were true, the alliance would consist of only humans.
    Gnomes
    Taurens
    Pandaran

    I'll elaborate on the Tauren. The only reason they are with the horde is due to Thralls actions (which were very good). But Tauren are a very peacefull people. So why join a "warlike horde"? If anything they should have been Neutral or Alliance. Why the Alliance? The Alliance is there to fend of alien invaders. Orcs are Aliens, the Burning Legion are aliens. They would be defending their world united with it's native people. Orcs under Thrall they turned out to be the good guys. But I am sure that if Uther with a knight army came across the Tauren that day instead of Thrall, the Tauren would have taken another path.

    If I looked at the story we underwent during leveling and from what I know at the moment of Pandaren Lore, I see no reason to have them "choose". They are an Alliance race. Everything about them tells me that. They do not have to "hate" the horde so viciously as the humans do.

    Horde:
    Dark Iron Dwarves
    Draenei - I am pretty sure that if Thrall offererd a peace offering and accepted Velen's judgement and council, these warcrimes could have been forgiven on the fact that Orcs are a childrace vs the Draenei. The Orcs were deceived and the Draenei know this. There should be room for forgiveness.
    Orcs
    Trolls
    Goblins
    Night Elves

    Night Elves: since they are so feral and nature loving, this would fit perfectly with the horde. I am sure that if they join they could more easily provide the horde with resources without damaging the forest = profit for both. The elves used to have no love for the humans afaik. And they worked very well together during WCIII in the end. This would also mean the Horde would have their pretty race.

    Forsaken: Cannot be in the horde or alliance. And what is this about revenge on the alliance as the OP wrote. Avenge for what? The Alliance didn't create them. They were a part of the Alliance. Why should they hate the Alliance? Sure they are the undead etc. What about Death Knights then? The concept of accepting those would be the same as the forsaken wouldn't it? So either they rejoin the Alliance for god knows what reason...or they try to live their "lifes" in peace as a neutral faction. A remnant of the Lich Kings Power.

    In this balance we have:

    (from vanilla onwards) Dwarf Priests on either side haha
    Both have paladins
    Both have shamans (BE could still be paladins since we have the Tauren on the Alliance side and that "brute race")
    Lorewise it could work.

    Forsaken is left out. But I really don't see the point of them at all except an unwelcome reminder of the Lich King.
    Quick note on blood elves in the Horde. Go do the blood elf starting zone. It wasn't just Garithos, there were also night elven saboteurs at work in Quel'Thelas as well as a dwarf diplomat that was making invasion plans or something like that. Garithos was not an isolated incident.

  14. #34
    I think you kind of missed the point with the blood elves. Yes, behind the scenes alliance was being played more and introducing an "alliance-like" race to the horde was a good step to balance the player base. But officially, theres no reason why they should have gone ally. They had pretty much been abandoned by the alliance when the scourge hit Quel'thalas, and they had been dealing with racism for a long time as well. The scourge changed both their lives and the lives of the forsaken, and to this day they share a special bond, so it makes sense that they would be invited to join the horde, where all misfit races can band together. It seems illogical that the belves would put abandonment and racism behind them to join with the allliance again.

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darillyn View Post
    I think you kind of missed the point with the blood elves. Yes, behind the scenes alliance was being played more and introducing an "alliance-like" race to the horde was a good step to balance the player base. But officially, theres no reason why they should have gone ally. They had pretty much been abandoned by the alliance when the scourge hit Quel'thalas, and they had been dealing with racism for a long time as well. The scourge changed both their lives and the lives of the forsaken, and to this day they share a special bond, so it makes sense that they would be invited to join the horde, where all misfit races can band together. It seems illogical that the belves would put abandonment and racism behind them to join with the allliance again.
    Quel'thalas left the Alliance in the aftermath of the Second War in the first place. When the Scourge hit them, there was not much left of the Alliance nearby to help them. So they were not "abandonned" by the Alliance. As for racism, it was not the fact of the Alliance but of Garithos who was leading (by his own authority) the remnants of the Alliance army in Lordaeron that he has succeeded to muster somehow. Afterwards, when it has been known that the Blood Elves were tapping into demon magic, they pretty much lost their reputation in the Alliance. As for the Scourge, i would say that Dalaran got hit hard too (the whole city destroyed, remember?), and it remained in the Alliance, even though it got neutral during Rhonin's leadership.

    They made it logical for the Blood Elves to join the Horde, but they would have fit in the Alliance just as well, if that had been Blizzard's will.
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  16. #36
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    Blizzard said that Draeneis are gonna have a comeback at some point and get alot of attention.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by This Guy View Post
    Blizzard said that Draeneis are gonna have a comeback at some point and get alot of attention.
    To what end, though?

    I'm all for giving Alliance races an update, but unfortunately, the Draenei simply do not feel like an Alliance race. Their purpose is to unite all races against the Burning Legion. An admirable goal, but a neutral one. It only hinders the Alliance re-gaining an identity when it has races in it's midst that are fundamentally neutral in ideology.

    Hell, the Draenei are more neutral than Pandaren... you know... the neutral race.... >.>

  18. #38
    How can you open up the section on humans by calling them "lawful good"? 'Cuz that shit with Lord Perenolde up on Alterac didn't happen, that whole enslaving the orcs-thing was just for show, Garithos' open, socially accepted, racism was somehow just a fluke, Daelin Proudmoore's equally racist, thoughtless, crazy revenge scheme never took place, etc? And that's just humans who were unambiguously members of the alliance. There are tons of horrible people who could be argued to have been member, such as all those mages and necromancers who rolled around committing atrocities for a while.

    Humans are Lawful Neutral, at best, and even then only if you exclude all the non-lawful and evil ones.
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  19. #39
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    How can you open up the section on humans by calling them "lawful good"? 'Cuz that shit with Lord Perenolde up on Alterac didn't happen, that whole enslaving the orcs-thing was just for show, Garithos' open, socially accepted, racism was somehow just a fluke, Daelin Proudmoore's equally racist, thoughtless, crazy revenge scheme never took place, etc? And that's just humans who were unambiguously members of the alliance. There are tons of horrible people who could be argued to have been member, such as all those mages and necromancers who rolled around committing atrocities for a while.

    Humans are Lawful Neutral, at best, and even then only if you exclude all the non-lawful and evil ones.
    As a society, human kingdoms have lawful good values. They have a strong, rigid hierarchy, complex social and governmental structures and sets of laws that every subject of the Kingdom is expected to follow. These sets of law are based on the common good, and the golden rule of not doing unto others what you wouldn't do unto oneself. Their main religion is the Church of Light, and you can't have more Lawful Good than that in Warcraft when you look at the tenets of that religion. However, that does not prevent individuals from being dicks.

    Also, concerning internment camps, Terenas choice was to slaughter all orcs or to keep them in camps. He chose the more compassionate one. I wonder what the Orcs would have done in that time if the roles had been reversed. Heck, I wonder what the Horde would do now if they were victorious...
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Also, concerning internment camps, Terenas choice was to slaughter all orcs or to keep them in camps. He chose the more compassionate one. I wonder what the Orcs would have done in that time if the roles had been reversed. Heck, I wonder what the Horde would do now if they were victorious...
    Probably mass genocide on the men and children, keep the women around for breeding stock. They did it with the Draenei.

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