Discussion about Arms rotation

[Senen]

So spamming OP is better than spamming slam even at cds? O_o

cause i always do smt like this: CS>dragon>MS>allcds>slam>slam>slam>ms>slam slam slam

As I said in my first post, during Recklessness, Slam>OP deals more damage, but if you're using Recklessness with Skull Banner (and you should), the difference is rather tight, and OP has the benefits or shortening the cd of MS and costing less rage. I still think that during a CS with every cd (including +% crit from trinket), Slam>OP is slightly better than OP>Slam but it's also more rng dependant.
Note that if you have the 4pT15, Slam>OP by far.

Btw, you shouldn't use Dragon Roar during CS, since DR ignores the armor. Actually, you should use your cd before DR, except for the +%crit ones, then use your other cds and CS.

[Deleted]

As I said in my first post, during Recklessness, Slam>OP deals more damage, but if you're using Recklessness with Skull Banner (and you should), the difference is rather tight, and OP has the benefits or shortening the cd of MS and costing less rage. I still think that during a CS with every cd (including +% crit from trinket), Slam>OP is slightly better than OP>Slam but it's also more rng dependant.
Note that if you have the 4pT15, Slam>OP by far.

Btw, you shouldn't use Dragon Roar during CS, since DR ignores the armor. Actually, you should use your cd before DR, except for the +%crit ones, then use your other cds and CS.

Ok understand.And if my recklessness and skull banner ends then OS spam is better than slam? or should be like 2-3x OS > Slam to dump rage?

[Senen]

Are you sure? I still feel a bit of a delay when trying to queue MS on cd.
I'll try a MS-xx-xx-CS-MS-OP-OP-Slam-MS sequence, then, if MS is queued even on cd it should fit in a CS.

Ok, I confirm that it fits in the CS. EXCEPT if you have 0 stack of OP. Then you'll have a delay between the MS and the first OP, and the last MS won't fit.
I will have to edit my first post, the 2-OP CS is far more viable than I thought if you don't have to worry about MS cooldown.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 11:35 AM ----------

Ok understand.And if my recklessness and skull banner ends then OS spam is better than slam? or should be like 2-3x OS > Slam to dump rage?

Yes, OP is better than Slam for both DPR and DPgcd. The reason why Slam is better than OP when you're under the effect of Recklessness (and other +% crit buff) is that with enough crit OP hits the crit-cap so the remaining crit is wasted for OP but useful for Slam.
Basically, when you are not on cd you want to keep using your TfB stacks and never waste a stack. However, you should always have at least one stack before a CS to be sure to handle the CS properly.
Keep in mind that you never want to end a CS by a OP (if you have one gcd less, use MS or Slam, since their DPE is higher than tose of OP) and you don't want to use 1xOP nor 4xOP, since it leads to CS window with very few techniques used.

[Recke]

So, you're playing with 2-OP sequences. Do you have any rage issue? I tried it a bit and found this gameplay difficult since you can easily mess with a CS or get rage starved when having several CS in a row.

I play with 2-OP, and yes, often times I cut it close on Rage. I often use Battle Shout almost on cd, especially if CS is about to be off cd and I don't have Stormbolt off cd.

I haven't tried Stormbolt yet. I was worried that the delay of this attack (iirc, the damage are dealt when your weapon hits the target, not when you press the button) may get it out of CS window sometimes. Is it an issue or the delay when you're in melee range is short enough?

I can't really note there is a delay when in melee range, however I often use this near the start of a CS, so I never have to worry about it. (CS, MS, if neither crit, BzR if possible, then CS).

[bigbad]

I play with 2-OP, and yes, often times I cut it close on Rage. I often use Battle Shout almost on cd, especially if CS is about to be off cd and I don't have Stormbolt off cd.

The 2-OP sounds interesting, using battleshout is suboptimal though DPR from slam is much higher then HS. Do you have any logs Recke? Curious how it compares to my dps. I've been doing well with 3-OP and dragonroar.

[Recke]

The 2-OP sounds interesting, using battleshout is suboptimal though DPR from slam is much higher then HS. Do you have any logs Recke? Curious how it compares to my dps. I've been doing well with 3-OP and dragonroar.

I have logs, however I can't share the worthwhile raid logs publicly due to guild policy. The only reason I find BShout to be worth it over Slam is because you want to sit high if CS debuff isn't applied. Cuz, if you get 3 Colossus Smash's to proc from SD back to back in a manner where you can dump rage for almost 15 seconds straight, it's pretty easy to dump all rage and feel starved. I use Dragon Roar as well. I'll try to get into a pug or LFR and record it and make it public.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 02:28 PM ----------

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-dm...28&e=603#Recky
Here's a link to logs just did. LFR, so take with a grain of salt (tanks facing boss towards the raid, low fluidity uptime due to boss placement, no second pot, ~.5 second input lag for some reason, boss also died just after trinkets came up again so seemingly inflated uptime). I'm only 510 ilvl with 2 pieces from rep and an Oondasta belt.

[bigbad]

Thanks for the log. Jinrokh is probably not the best boss to compare abilities but I'll give it a go. My last kill at 507 ilvl had me at 177k dps so about the same. Two stormbolts are ~1mil damage while bloodbath was about 650k damage if you add 2 slam/op to that I end up with about 950k damage. Can't tell much else from the log its all about the same my OP crits for 5k higher on average, slam damage is about the same but interesting that stormbolt does well (at least in this small sample).

[Recke]

Thanks for the log. Jinrokh is probably not the best boss to compare abilities but I'll give it a go. My last kill at 507 ilvl had me at 177k dps so about the same. Two stormbolts are ~1mil damage while bloodbath was about 650k damage if you add 2 slam/op to that I end up with about 950k damage. Can't tell much else from the log its all about the same my OP crits for 5k higher on average, slam damage is about the same but interesting that stormbolt does well (at least in this small sample).

I personally think BB is better. Landsoul was talking to me, upping Stormbolt and I kind of see why. Stormbolt is 500% weapon damage. 2 per minute, so 1000%. Ideally, both will crit, for 2000%. Even more so, both will crit during Colossus Smash for 1350%x2, so 2700% weapon damage. If you DON'T have 2pc t14, MS is 175%, OP will crit for about 210% (105%x2), Slam for 220%. So, during every BB, every minute, you'd have to get what, 3 Mortal Strikes, 6 Overpowers, (for 700% + 1260%= 1960%) plus a CS (for 4x1.5+6x1=12seconds) for another 175% (MS is 175+175+175x2, assuming one was a crit), with having a majority of it to be in the CS debuff (meaning one applied before bloodbath or in place of one of the MS's and the other used halfway through). Obviously, this is ONLY if both Stormbolt hits are crits and during CS. But, ideally, this will be a higher source of damage normally. And then you have to assume that the full BB rotation shit only gives 30% of it as bonus damage. And, assuming you replace slam with Stormbolt, you are saving 20 rage for bonus 110%*1.35 for a heroic strike during Colossus Smash.

[bigbad]

Other cooldowns and pots should effect bloodbath twice as much as stormbolt, but stormbolt is a shitload of weapondamage. From what I can tell the damage is about the same depending if you get lucky on crits on stormbolt it will be better or not.

[Deleted]

Here's my logs from Sunday's raid, if anyone wants to analyze them for whatever reason.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/g95w9bmy87fjscnx/