So Daglar posted some stuff about Arena's

[RoninaThorstone]

= If anybody is looking for competitive PvP, I can't see how this game is the place to be. The same goes for WoW or nearly any other MMO.

Red5 is doing something interesting. They are completely delinking pvp and pve in there game. Like, ultra normalization.
It will be interesting to see how people react to it. I think most people will be frustrated at not having a skinners box gear system but the people who are truly looking for fair pvp will enjoy themselves.

[Fencers]

They also have that incredible spectator mode in Firefall, no? Highly impressive.

[Edge-]

Well, if they just could think outside the box about competitive pvp.

That's the issue. If something is going to be competitive, it needs to be balanced, or have some semblance of balance. With how Rift is designed (i.e. an insane amount of complexity due to the variety of potential builds and the interaction between these builds), achieving anything close to that level of balance is impossible without completely re-working how many of the classes function in PvP. That's more than just tweaking damage numbers, that's altering core mechanics of certain classes and how key abilities function.

Shit, i don't care if it's balanced ... I just want the option there. All I read was "If we put in arenas, it creates more work for us."

You want the option there so that it can be a terrible, unbalanced experience where you either fit into the, "My comp is OP and I shitroll everyone" or "My comp is shit and no matter how well we play we get stomped by scrubs running a far superior comp."? That's likely how it would end.

They could create arena's, but to get them anywhere close to where they need to be, it would require a massive time investment. By that I mean months of time devoted to re-working PvP for the arena's, with no other content being worked on. They would have to rebuild many classes PvP functionality from the ground up, and heavily alter other classes.

This is not a simple task if they want to make it a decent feature. Blizzard has come out on more than one occasion and commented on how Arena's were one of their worst ideas. They tried to promote them as an e-sport for a while, but it got laughed out of the pro community and is now sort of just a feature that's there.

[Deleted]

blizzard admitted a while ago that arenas were not such a good idea in wow and trion being smart and good at learning from others mistakes decided not to make blizzards mistake again

Calling BS on that right there. I'm sure they (Blizzard) have said they have made choices they regret regarding arenas (like letting BL be used), but that arenas were a bad idea? Not when its still got its own pro circuit.

[RoninaThorstone]

Calling BS on that right there. I'm sure they (Blizzard) have said they have made choices they regret regarding arenas (like letting BL be used), but that arenas were a bad idea? Not when its still got its own pro circuit.

I'm pretty sure if wizards 101 added arena it would also have its own pro circuit.

Arena did far more damage than good to blizzards reputation, the community, and peoples enjoyment of the game.
(which is of course unquantifiable but there's a reason why there's so many MMO pvpers roaming the internet looking for a new pvp game)

[Linzo]

I'm pretty sure if wizards 101 added arena it would also have its own pro circuit.

Arena did far more damage than good to blizzards reputation, the community, and peoples enjoyment of the game.
(which is of course unquantifiable but there's a reason why there's so many MMO pvpers roaming the internet looking for a new pvp game)

What damage? What happened to the community due to arenas? how do i enjoy the game LESS with more option available?

these are just forum myths created by randoms on random forums.

Arenas > no Arenas

the same way as

Options > no Options

Period.

[meathead]

well maybe rated arena's is not something rift wants in there game,ok. maybe something like RBG's in wow would work?bigger teams less balance issues for the most part.

[RoninaThorstone]

What damage? What happened to the community due to arenas? how do i enjoy the game LESS with more option available?

these are just forum myths created by randoms on random forums.

Arenas > no Arenas

the same way as

Options > no Options

Period.

You don't remember the fit people threw about xrealm?
Or the fit about arena having vs same faction?
Or the constant complaints about arena?
Or the class vs class hate it spawned?
Or the sense of server/faction unity it shattered?

A lot of people do remember.

IE: The term fotm wasn't tossed around the boards in vanilla.
There were complaints mainly about rogues.

[Acquiesce of Telara]

Calling BS on that right there. I'm sure they (Blizzard) have said they have made choices they regret regarding arenas (like letting BL be used), but that arenas were a bad idea? Not when its still got its own pro circuit.

Rob Pardo:

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.

From Warcry Interview, Page 2

[Fencers]

I recall Pardo once saying arenas were the "mistake" of Warcraft. Which seems to be the case in terms of game design.

[RoninaThorstone]

It's not even arenas themselves so much as the way they handled them and I don't think trion would be able to handle them much better without pissing off the people who want what they envision when they ask for arenas and the people who don't want arenas. There is almost no good way for them to implement them after the fact.

The best way, I think, is for them to essentially "relaunch pvp" with extreme normalization, many different types of pvp (ctf, ctp, convoy, deathmatch, ect ect ect) with many different sizes and no greater or lesser emphasis on any type of pvp.

edit: hell, have classes abilities do more or less damage WHILE IN PVP so you can balance them separately from pve.

[Edge-]

Calling BS on that right there. I'm sure they (Blizzard) have said they have made choices they regret regarding arenas (like letting BL be used), but that arenas were a bad idea? Not when its still got its own pro circuit.

Someone else linked the Pardo statement about Arena's in WoW. But as for the "pro circuit", that was entirely funded and supported by Blizzard if I remember correctly. It never caught on outside of events Blizzard would run or support, and that's why it's not really around anymore. LK was when it was biggest IIRC, and even then it was never looked upon as a "proper" esport.

[RoninaThorstone]

Someone else linked the Pardo statement about Arena's in WoW. But as for the "pro circuit", that was entirely funded and supported by Blizzard if I remember correctly. It never caught on outside of events Blizzard would run or support, and that's why it's not really around anymore. LK was when it was biggest IIRC, and even then it was never looked upon as a "proper" esport.

Yeah. And when MLG dropped it, didn't they basically shit on it too? I vaguely remember it not being a pleasant farewell. Something along the lines of "people aren't interesting in watching MPR vs fotm every time"

[Fencers]

The best way, I think, is for them to essentially "relaunch pvp" with extreme normalization, many different types of pvp (ctf, ctp, convoy, deathmatch, ect ect ect) with many different sizes and no greater or lesser emphasis on any type of pvp.

edit: hell, have classes abilities do more or less damage WHILE IN PVP so you can balance them separately from pve.

Sounds exactly like the kind of time and resources Trion don't and can't commit.

[RoninaThorstone]

Sounds exactly like the kind of time and resources Trion don't and can't commit.

Exactly what Daglar said.
And I don't think they should either. They would alienate their extremely loyal PVE base in order to do it right.

[alt-ithist]

Exactly what Daglar said.
And I don't think they should either. They would alienate their extremely loyal PVE base in order to do it right.

Make no mistake, they would alienate some of their pvper's too. I don't hardcore pve in rift, Never saw the inside of a raid. Love the pvp and I would drop rift the moment that it started to get tuned around arenas. Wow vanilla pvp was annoying but arenas completely killed it for me. Hope Rift stay far FAR away from the concept.

[slime]

Sounds exactly like the kind of time and resources Trion don't and can't commit.

Well that is fair and if he just said - we poor and no way we can afford adding arenas I'd accept it better. But he didn't he twisted in a way to say.. hey we know what you all want, you don't know what you all want - that's why we are not putting it in. I understand they are not blizzard and don't have that kind of money - then just say it don't tell us "it's for the better you don't get arenas in rift because you will all bitch and moan about balance." - just come out and say we cannot afford to put in arenas.

Also, imo - if any game can get this right it's rift. They already have this amazing talent system with like 10 trees per class, they just re-introduce a tree for pvp only type stuff - through that right there they can (probably) maintain some sort of balance - w/o effecting pve in anyway - because all your real pvp damage/tanking/healing will come from that one tree - sure people will buff it up with 2 pve trees, but that will only be 15 points, because the "pvp" tree will pretty much be a necessity to go full 61 points.

Just please don't tell me what's better for me, just be honest say you don't have the resources to accomplish this.

I will again state that even if it is the most F'ed up thing in the world as far as balance and pre-determined winning comps - I STILL WANT THE CHOICE TO PLAY IT. Hell, even with tough comps in wow - a win still squeeks through here and there - and man does it feel nice to beat opponents you were told - no way your shit comp beats ours. I, for one, don't care about balance - if it's terrible then i just won't play it for a while - but maybe I will get a hankering to go in there one day and at least i can.

Also, those quoting blizz about "arenas was a bad idea, we wish we never had done it." that's crazy, I know so many people who ONLY pvp in wow - and live for arenas. Whether they created a monster or not - i think they'd minimum lose like 1 mil subs if they removed arenas. People obviously want PVP, WFs, CQ, arenas - or that wouldn't be there at all. Blizz sounds like a piece of crap saying this basically, well yea arenas are fun and competitive - but if we had know beforehand how much time and effort and money goes into maintaining them we would've passed. LOL - thanks billion dollar company for admiting your greed and general laziness.

I've been told I am abbrasive when replying on here and I do not mean to be. Especially to Fencers - who helped me get that blasted achievement I couldn't get ( THANKYOU! ) So, I seriously do not mean to affend anyone - this is just how I feel about this subject.

[RoninaThorstone]

Well that is fair and if he just said - we poor and no way we can afford adding arenas I'd accept it better. But he didn't he twisted in a way to say.. hey we know what you all want, you don't know what you all want - that's why we are not putting it in.

"Before anyone also says "its easy to just do the balance for PvP" - no, it isn't easy to do that on a product of RIFT's scale and complexity level. It becomes double the development time, double the bug count, double the QA time, and still results in sadness."

They are pretty much saying that they don't have the resources right here.

[slime]

"Before anyone also says "its easy to just do the balance for PvP" - no, it isn't easy to do that on a product of RIFT's scale and complexity level. It becomes double the development time, double the bug count, double the QA time, and still results in sadness."

They are pretty much saying that they don't have the resources right here.

I know, it just seemed hidden behind a wall of "look guys you don't want this anyhow". But yea it's there.

[Kelimbror]

I know, it just seemed hidden behind a wall of "look guys you don't want this anyhow". But yea it's there.

Umm..wha? I'd like to know how you got that from the statement.

We totally get that people want to have an outlet for competitive PvP. Wanting that isn't a bad thing. Delivering it to the quality level we believe it demands without upsetting the apple cart and creating an unsustainable amount of development work is a wholly different challenge.

We understand what an arena system is and does and we've contemplated it a number of times. RIFT however is an order of magnitude more complicated than most games out on the market today. Once an arena system comes in, a top COMP will come out, and unless we start micro managing spec balance and change spec balance even more dramatically things will ultimately not be a good experience.

If we don't adjust the classes more and more, everyone will just complain that things are not fair and that the FOTM group is V/W/X/Y/Z and the entire feature is a failure and that they are going to quit because it is not what they envisioned.

It will then spiral into making tons of class tweaks which we really do not want to make and have larger reaching impacts. Before anyone also says "its easy to just do the balance for PvP" - no, it isn't easy to do that on a product of RIFT's scale and complexity level. It becomes double the development time, double the bug count, double the QA time, and still results in sadness.

Daglar
Creative Director: RIFT