My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

[Crashdummy]

I dont understand your first statement so i cant comment on that. Doing the loot scenario can be done with blue gear since you fight nothing that hits harder than a leveling mob. Honor gear has hit/expertise on it, the resil/power is added after the budget. You will not miss any of your attacks if you reforge the gear the same way you would dungeon gear. You don't have to PVP. You can do heroics til 460 the go to MSV til 470 then HoF and ToES til 480 then ToT and you're caught up. No PVP needed whatsoever.

Doing the scenario means that you previously had to go to the tiny overcorwded area with mobs tuned for people in high level epics with your blue gear. That's bad design.

If you get your gear from PVP gear, you wont reach the hit/expertise caps.

[SherbertLand]

Is it just me or is Crashdummy's opinion the core destruction that has been wrecked on the wow I know some out there still miss, luv and wish would come back. Basically - if it's too hard for me, I don't want it in the game because you might be able to get something i can't. Blizzard massively F'ed up when they gave that theoretical baby its bottle.

Wouldn't want someone to get something you can't, would we?

[hyphnos]

The isle has 476 epics for sale, you're not going to get killed constantly while doing dailies, my 458 ret set doesn't seem to have much of a problem and you can't blame blizzard for forcing you to do pvp when you're choosing to get epics that weren't intended for pve. You can get an endless amount of elder charms which means you can get an endless amount of chances at loot. Rng is still a thing, but this is World of Warcraft. Rng has always been a thing.

Don't confuse not getting anymore time spent on it for not having content at all. You want new 5 mans for the same reason Blizzard doesn't want to make new 5 mans - people get bored of them too quickly.

First off the "isle" as you call it has 476 BELTS for sale. Belts do not constitute a gearing mechanism.

Secondly, you cannot get an "infinite" amount of coins and furthermore those coins constitute a winning roll that you may or may not need at best 20% of the time.
So, what you're really saying is that the "catch-up" mechanism is one in which you run 5.0 LFR over and over and over so you can spend coins that you can only get in abundance during your once a week treasure run to maybe get an item that you can maybe use.

OR you can grind BGs to get guaranteed 476 gear in whatever slot you chose when you chose it.

And finally your last sentence doesn't make any sense at all. Blizzard doesn't want to make new 5 mans not because people get bored of them, but because they don't want to spend resources on it and think that they can keep most of their subs by stating that LFR is an acceptable catch-up mechanism. My view is that it isn't and they will pay the price in subs for thinking they can get away with it.

The difference is, if I'm wrong, it doesn't cost me a penny. If they are, it's millions of dollars down the tubes.

[-Superman-]

If you get your gear from PVP gear, you wont reach the hit/expertise caps.

Honest question: Couldn't that just be reforged?

[Crashdummy]

The isle has 476 epics for sale, you're not going to get killed constantly while doing dailies, my 458 ret set doesn't seem to have much of a problem and you can't blame blizzard for forcing you to do pvp when you're choosing to get epics that weren't intended for pve. You can get an endless amount of elder charms which means you can get an endless amount of chances at loot. Rng is still a thing, but this is World of Warcraft. Rng has always been a thing.

Don't confuse not getting anymore time spent on it for not having content at all. You want new 5 mans for the same reason Blizzard doesn't want to make new 5 mans - people get bored of them too quickly.

You wont get killed constantly, but you will probably die more than you deserve, and it will take a lot more time than it should.

And yes, the isle has 476 for sale, how does that not align with what i was saying?

To get your "endless amount of charms" you need to be really lucky and go to the isle frequently on your undergeared char.

If you are not lucky, you will only get 8 charms (a bad luck thunder king scenario) which is not endless.

[SherbertLand]

First off the "isle" as you call it has 476 BELTS for sale. Belts do not constitute a gearing mechanism.

Secondly, you cannot get an "infinite" amount of coins and furthermore those coins constitute a winning roll that you may or may not need at best 20% of the time.
So, what you're really saying is that the "catch-up" mechanism is one in which you run 5.0 LFR over and over and over so you can spend coins that you can only get in abundance during your once a week treasure run to maybe get an item that you can maybe use.

OR you can grind BGs to get guaranteed 476 gear in whatever slot you chose when you chose it.

And finally your last sentence doesn't make any sense at all. Blizzard doesn't want to make new 5 mans not because people get bored of them, but because they don't want to spend resources on it and think that they can keep most of their subs by stating that LFR is an acceptable catch-up mechanism. My view is that it isn't and they will pay the price in subs for thinking they can get away with it.

The difference is, if I'm wrong, it doesn't cost me a penny. If they are, it's millions of dollars down the tubes.

Easy to obtain epics constitute as a gearing mechanism.

Rng gripes have no place in an argument. Everyone deals with the same rng as you do, you just didn't do it as long.

Do you think Blizzard is some evil company that's just trying to treat their players like crap? They don't want to spend resources on it because people get bored of them really fast. Are you still enjoying the 5 mans mop shipped with? If not, you're proving their point.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 02:26 PM ----------

You wont get killed constantly, but you will probably die more than you deserve, and it will take a lot more time than it should.

And yes, the isle has 476 for sale, how does that not align with what i was saying?

To get your "endless amount of charms" you need to be really lucky and go to the isle frequently on your undergeared char.

If you are not lucky, you will only get 8 charms (a bad luck thunder king scenario) which is not endless.

Luck and rng has always been a thing, why do you think you're special enough to get systems that go around it?

[Mordredofmia]

You can go out and farm if you want to, they can't drag you to the gear, you have to move on your own too.

This is a worthless comment that addresses nothing. The point is they have added so many boring, grindy, obstacles to gearing that no one in their right mind would want to participate in them. And look at the sub numbers falling. What a shock, people don't want to pay $15 a month for a fucking chore.

They already had a system in place that rewarded you for putting effort into getting gear. It's not like in Wrath heroics you hit a button a got gear. I remember running those dungeons tons of times and having a blast doing it. Then I went into a raid and earned my raid gear just like anyone else.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:27 PM ----------

I bought each piece of PvP gear for 90 gold. 90 gold. I made like 6K minimum just leveling to 90 and have no money on my DK from other sources since it is a horde toon when all my others are alliance. I'm not sure why you're talking about level 80.

Because the experience I had hit 80 is so much better then the experience anyone has hitting 90 is this fucking waste of an expansion, that is why. That is my point

[ShimmerSwirl]

Actually, it is more like a video game where you are rewarded with gear just for making an effort in a "raid". There is no real world comparison for this. LFR gear is only on par for LFR. You have to craft or Raid for reg/heroic raid gear. An LFR runner will not get geared enough to get into 25M Heroic content. So they, in essence are NOT doing the same thing. Not sure why so many people have such issue with a simple feature that made raiding convenient for the avg person.

Because gear is only part of the issue. Having an extra number on your piece of gear is only marginally exciting. Having to conquer a boss that is so dangerous that only a handful of players have even seen him is the exciting part. LFR removes that.

[Charge me Doctor]

That is assuming you have the Ilvl or Quality gear to go straight into Normal modes from the beginning of a New patch. With a new Character, and after having missed nearly 2 months of playing due to moving house and waiting for a new Internet connection/Stability I am pretty much relegated to running MSV over and over until I get enough gear to then run HoF and EOTS both which have insane queue times of 25-40mins, which also only give a small chance of getting gearing since I am currently without charms from last Patch.

Also to buy the Valor gear when your character is currently on 0/1000vp means 2 weeks minimum before I can buy even my first piece of valor gear, and that is assuming I've done the dailies and got the Rep to allow them to be bought.

Normal mode old raids is the way to gear up, not LFR. You need gear to do normal raids? Go heroic dungeons, even 450 gear is enough to do 30k DPS to be able to clear mogushan vaults and heart of fear.

I see there only 1 problem, people don't want to do old raids because they are too late to do it in "first wave"

[-Superman-]

Because gear is only part of the issue. Having an extra number on your piece of gear is only marginally exciting. Having to conquer a boss that is so dangerous that only a handful of players have even seen him is the exciting part. LFR removes that.

But again, I have to wonder why that matters. Is someone forcing you to run the LFR? Are you upset people would rather use LFR than join a raiding guild? It shouldn't matter to anyone but the person running LFR about the "quality" of the content they get to see. Honestly, I wish they would open LFR up for all the pre-MoP stuff too. Some people just can't raid 2 nights a week 6 hours at a time for Normal/Heroic progression. With LFR, these players (and there are a ton of them) have the chance to raid on their own time, and not the clock of some raid guild.

I think the only reason hardcore raiders hate LFR is because LFR is dipping into their spare pool of raiders. With LFR, people no longer have to beg a guild to let them run with them. Now they can just queue up whenever. I'm guessing if more guilds hadn't been so die hard and elitist about stuff, the LFR probably would not exist. But those casuals who want to see the raids without feeling the undo peer pressure from hardcores got exactly what they asked for... and now "raiders" are upset that they have no recruiting pool left.

[SherbertLand]

This is a worthless comment that addresses nothing. The point is they have added so many boring, grindy, obstacles to gearing that no one in their right mind would want to participate in them. And look at the sub numbers falling. What a shock, people don't want to pay $15 a month for a fucking chore.

They already had a system in place that rewarded you for putting effort into getting gear. It's not like in Wrath heroics you hit a button a got gear. I remember running those dungeons tons of times and having a blast doing it. Then I went into a raid and earned my raid gear just like anyone else.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:27 PM ----------



Because the experience I had hit 80 is so much better then the experience anyone has hitting 90 is this fucking waste of an expansion, that is why. That is my point

IT sounds like World of Warcraft may not be for you.

[Crashdummy]

Is it just me or is Crashdummy's opinion the core destruction that has been wrecked on the wow I know some out there still miss, luv and wish would come back. Basically - if it's too hard for me, I don't want it in the game because you might be able to get something i can't. Blizzard massively F'ed up when they gave that theoretical baby its bottle.

Its the core of WoW success. Its the reason why WoW completely DESTROYED UO and EQ, which followed the style you "miss".

Blizzard is fucking up their own success by changing their game to the style of those they destroyed in the past.

[Kelimbror]

Because the experience I had hit 80 is so much better then the experience anyone has hitting 90 is this fucking waste of an expansion, that is why. That is my point

Reread what you posted, it makes no sense. You are saying the experience was better, but your reasoning was because you had to farm for gold to get epic flying and you didn't have professions feeding you gold. And somehow that was a response to what I was saying about easily being able to get gear to do LFR in this expansion?

I do not follow because you aren't making any sense.

[Crashdummy]

Luck and rng has always been a thing, why do you think you're special enough to get systems that go around it?

Luck and RNG has always been a thing, but they used to be attached to daily lockouts or could be surpassed by spending more time in the game running more LFD.

The problem is that now is attached to a WEEKLY lockout.

[-Superman-]

Reread what you posted, it makes no sense. You are saying the experience was better, but your reasoning was because you had to farm for gold to get epic flying and you didn't have professions feeding you gold. And somehow that was a response to what I was saying about easily being able to get gear to do LFR in this expansion?

I do not follow because you aren't making any sense.

Sounds like the generic "Wrath was awesome and MoP sucks" argument.

[Crashdummy]

IT sounds like World of Warcraft may not be for you.

It sound like World of Warcraft is for him, but World of Dailycraft is not for him.

WoW used to be about dungeoning more than about doing daily quests.

[-Superman-]

It sound like World of Warcraft is for him, but World of Dailycraft is not for him.

WoW used to be about dungeoning more than about doing daily quests.

We had dailies in TBC, in Wrath, and in Cata. I think the only difference is the amount of gating.

[Charge me Doctor]

It sound like World of Warcraft is for him, but World of Dailycraft is not for him.

WoW used to be about dungeoning more than about doing daily quests.

Then go and do a fucking raid! Everyone is bitching about not being able to go to vendor and buy gear so they can raid end game content, not because they can't raid at all.

[Revak]

If you could buy the 5.0/5.1 valor gear with Justice Points it wouldn't be as bad.

My main problem is that it requires you to queue at least 5 times to do all of the previous LFR's. At least. Usually I have to queue multiple times to finish 2 or 3 of those which means 7-8 queues. That's probably around 6 hours of just waiting to run these raids on my alts so that I can gear them up.

Discouraging to play alts to say the least.

[Kelimbror]

If you could buy the 5.0/5.1 valor gear with Justice Points it wouldn't be as bad.

My main problem is that it requires you to queue at least 5 times to do all of the previous LFR's. At least. Usually I have to queue multiple times to finish 2 or 3 of those which means 7-8 queues. That's probably around 6 hours of just waiting to run these raids on my alts so that I can gear them up.

Discouraging to play alts to say the least.

And fairly this is what I said the problem was. It's no longer the initial gearing to get into LFR, that part is a pittance of gold or minute amount of time. It's just moved the sliding scale up to intro tier. And possibly when the next set comes out it will move the intro tier up one more notch.

That's called having a catch up mechanic. It might not be perfect, but it's honestly not as bad as it was when the game launched. I wouldn't be playing again if it was still in the state it was at launch. I got burned out in 2 weeks and was ready to go. Now it feels much more leisurely and available, instead of forced and punishing.