Patch 5.3: Pushing the Horde apart

[Trassk]

Ok. If blizzard does something like having Varian in his pompous attitude claim the alliance needs to break the horde apart, and as high king he has the right to do so, thats is little surprise, i wouldn't expect anything less, given how he was the character who started this whole mess by pushing Garrosh on to become the war hungry bastard he now is.

But what will make me want to throw dead pigeons at blizzard HQ, is if the horde just lets Varian try this on, that instead of standing on there own two feet, forming there own rebellion, gathering there own resistance, they instead follow the words of that asshat who has caused nothing but grief to there side all this time, and who doesn't even account for his own actions, that would be the moment the horde lost any sense of dignity.

What god dam right does Varian have to declare 'the horde needs to be broken apart', like he's suddenly the ruler of azeroth. And more to the point, if this whole story is leading to some plothole where the alliance is the only ones taking the high ground in this, then the entire development of characters like Vol'jin, the darkspears lor'themar, silvermoon, Baine, Thrall, Saurfang, and every other character effected by Garrosh's hubris, will have been for nothing, just to give the alliance players some undeserving sense of gratification.
And yes, something that freaking big, the alliance is not deserving of it, since whatever whining they made in cataclysm, they honestly lost nothing of faction pride from it.

[Frontenac]

Ok. If blizzard does something like having Varian in his pompous attitude claim the alliance needs to break the horde apart, and as high king he has the right to do so, thats is little surprise, i wouldn't expect anything less, given how he was the character who started this whole mess by pushing Garrosh on to become the war hungry bastard he now is.

But what will make me want to throw dead pigeons at blizzard HQ, is if the horde just lets Varian try this on, that instead of standing on there own two feet, forming there own rebellion, gathering there own resistance, they instead follow the words of that asshat who has caused nothing but grief to there side all this time, and who doesn't even account for his own actions, that would be the moment the horde lost any sense of dignity.

What god dam right does Varian have to declare 'the horde needs to be broken apart', like he's suddenly the ruler of azeroth. And more to the point, if this whole story is leading to some plothole where the alliance is the only ones taking the high ground in this, then the entire development of characters like Vol'jin, the darkspears lor'themar, silvermoon, Baine, Thrall, Saurfang, and every other character effected by Garrosh's hubris, will have been for nothing, just to give the alliance players some undeserving sense of gratification.
And yes, something that freaking big, the alliance is not deserving of it, since whatever whining they made in cataclysm, they honestly lost nothing of faction pride from it.

Varian is leading the Alliance in a war. If he wants to defeat Garrosh, the best way is to make him lose his allies, either by destroying them (he can hardly do that) or by "helping" them turn against Garrosh. No kingdom can stand if it is divided against itself. It is a sound strategy. That does not mean the different Horde races would obey Varian though.

[Sigmar]

Oh boy, it's Trassk! Brace for fanboy rage!

Ok. If blizzard does something like having Varian in his pompous attitude claim the alliance needs to break the horde apart, and as high king he has the right to do so, thats is little surprise, i wouldn't expect anything less, given how he was the character who started this whole mess by pushing Garrosh on to become the war hungry bastard he now is.

Actually last I checked Garrosh was the one declaring that the Alliance don't deserve to exist for no reason but petty jealousy, going so far as to justify the slaughter of children for the rather asinine reason, "They could grow up to be our enemies!"

Note he said that to Saurfang, who still suffers PTSD from the atrocities he committed while in the Old Horde. Hearing pigs being slaughtered sends the guy into flashbacks. Saurfang himself said he'd kill Garrosh if he started taking them down that path again.

But what will make me want to throw dead pigeons at blizzard HQ, is if the horde just lets Varian try this on, that instead of standing on there own two feet, forming there own rebellion, gathering there own resistance, they instead follow the words of that asshat who has caused nothing but grief to there side all this time, and who doesn't even account for his own actions, that would be the moment the horde lost any sense of dignity.

The Horde and dignity are two things that don't go together this expansion. War crimes and rebellion dominate their story, just like the Alliance has dominated them on the battlefield. Garrosh has been an amazing failure as a leader, screwing up every campaign and losing a superweapon to a fourteen year old boy. If anything Varian showing up to save them from themselves would be a blessing.

What god dam right does Varian have to declare 'the horde needs to be broken apart', like he's suddenly the ruler of azeroth.

I dunno, Trassk. Maybe the part where the Horde declared war on them and want to kill every last man, woman, and child in the Alliance for no reason other than they exist? Those are Garrosh's words, by the way. The guy you're defending.

And more to the point, if this whole story is leading to some plothole where the alliance is the only ones taking the high ground in this, then the entire development of characters like Vol'jin, the darkspears lor'themar, silvermoon, Baine, Thrall, Saurfang, and every other character effected by Garrosh's hubris, will have been for nothing, just to give the alliance players some undeserving sense of gratification.

The Alliance defeating the Horde would probably lead to Varian, who's been a more rational leader than anyone Hordeside so far, putting the new Warchief in charge. I'd trust Varian's decision on the matter more than Thrall's any day after the disaster his last appointed Warchief turned out to be.

Also you seem to think the Alliance is undeserving of any kind of gratification. But when Blizzard wanks all over the Horde that's perfectly fine. Gotta love that fanboy logic.

And yes, something that freaking big, the alliance is not deserving of it, since whatever whining they made in cataclysm, they honestly lost nothing of faction pride from it.

Ah yes, just faction pride. Nevermind dropped quest chains, character derailment to neutrality, two entire races forgotten from the lore, unfinished quest hubs, Worgen being barely finished in terms of character models, the Worgen storyline finishing up in a Forsaken quest chain. That's nothing to whine about while Blizzard was bending over backwards to make the Horde look good.

[Talen]

in the second war the kingdom of Alterac was an ally of the Horde, was a human kingdom

"Ally" is stretching the term really, really far.

Most Alteracians fought the Horde with gusto. It was their craven King who made a deal - don't attack us, let us live and I'll let you use these passes and won't warn my allies about you.

In doing so he earned the everlasting disgust of his own people.

EJL

[Florena]

Ok. If blizzard does something like having Varian in his pompous attitude claim the alliance needs to break the horde apart, and as high king he has the right to do so, thats is little surprise, i wouldn't expect anything less, given how he was the character who started this whole mess by pushing Garrosh on to become the war hungry bastard he now is.

But what will make me want to throw dead pigeons at blizzard HQ, is if the horde just lets Varian try this on, that instead of standing on there own two feet, forming there own rebellion, gathering there own resistance, they instead follow the words of that asshat who has caused nothing but grief to there side all this time, and who doesn't even account for his own actions, that would be the moment the horde lost any sense of dignity.

What god dam right does Varian have to declare 'the horde needs to be broken apart', like he's suddenly the ruler of azeroth. And more to the point, if this whole story is leading to some plothole where the alliance is the only ones taking the high ground in this, then the entire development of characters like Vol'jin, the darkspears lor'themar, silvermoon, Baine, Thrall, Saurfang, and every other character effected by Garrosh's hubris, will have been for nothing, just to give the alliance players some undeserving sense of gratification.
And yes, something that freaking big, the alliance is not deserving of it, since whatever whining they made in cataclysm, they honestly lost nothing of faction pride from it.

Where do you keep getting this idea from that Varian is somehow responsible for 'pushing' Garrosh into his craziness? Garrosh was the way he is back in Wrath before he even met Varian. Varian did not make Garrosh. Garrosh is responsible for his own crimes. Varian did not force Garrosh's hand. Varian did not force Garrosh to mana bomb Theramore. Varian did not force Garrosh to use the divine bell. Varian did not force Garrosh to make the kor'kron into secret police or put the echo isles under martial law. You're vastly overblowing Varian's role in Garrosh's story.

And Varian didn't say "The Horde needs to be broken apart." A dev said the Alliance will push the Horde apart. This may be just what the rebellion needs to really get the ball rolling, is for the Alliance to put more pressure on Garrosh so things start snapping and they can make their move. And even if Varian HAD said that, how is that any worse than Garrosh saying the Alliance needs to be crushed?

You go on about how we lost nothing but faction pride form the losses the Alliance has taken, but what does the Horde have to lose from Varian playing a big role in this? Nothing but faction pride. You're jumping to conclusions by saying this would derail the character development for Vol'jin, Lor'themar and others as well. We don't yet know HOW things are going to play out. And I see nothing wrong with the Alliance striking a clear victory against the horde, just as the Horde got a clear victory in Theramore.

[Sigmar]

Where do you keep getting this idea from that Varian is somehow responsible for 'pushing' Garrosh into his craziness? Garrosh was the way he is back in Wrath before he even met Varian. Varian did not make Garrosh. Garrosh is responsible for his own crimes. Varian did not force Garrosh's hand. Varian did not force Garrosh to mana bomb Theramore. Varian did not force Garrosh to use the divine bell. Varian did not force Garrosh to make the kor'kron into secret police or put the echo isles under martial law. You're vastly overblowing Varian's role in Garrosh's story.

And Varian didn't say "The Horde needs to be broken apart." A dev said the Alliance will push the Horde apart. This may be just what the rebellion needs to really get the ball rolling, is for the Alliance to put more pressure on Garrosh so things start snapping and they can make their move. And even if Varian HAD said that, how is that any worse than Garrosh saying the Alliance needs to be crushed?

You go on about how we lost nothing but faction pride form the losses the Alliance has taken, but what does the Horde have to lose from Varian playing a big role in this? Nothing but faction pride. You're jumping to conclusions by saying this would derail the character development for Vol'jin, Lor'themar and others as well. We don't yet know HOW things are going to play out. And I see nothing wrong with the Alliance striking a clear victory against the horde, just as the Horde got a clear victory in Theramore.

A well worded response. Downside though this is Trassk we're talking about. He's not exactly a logical fellow.

[Florena]

On the topic of more races becoming cross faction, I'm against it. Having one neutral race has worked out OK, but I wouldn't want to shatter the racial identities of the factions by opening it up to existing races. It would be horribly contrived to come up with reasons to have humans in the horde and orcs in the alliance. Let alone if you tried to do it to every race. The only other race this could work with is blood elves/high elves because they're pretty much the same race other than skin tone and eye color, and they already are split between the factions with high elves just unplayable.

[Sky High]

The Orcs also need a reason. Hellscream is the ultimate champion for the Orcs (except the odd few who have the same ideals as Drek'Thar/Thrall. The Horde, thought mainly the Orcs, needed a champion for their faction and Garrosh was that. He has brought countless victories to the Horde and with the whole "Loyalty to the Warchief" idea that most Orcs have, they will continue to believe this until something happens to them. Some atrocious. Maybe Garrosh puts down an Orc? Drek'thar, Saurfang, Rexxar? Whatever happens, the Orcs need a reason to turn on him.

i've seen a few people talk about how the orcs could possibly like Garry and i'm inclined to give the /are you fucking kidding me face. its impossible for them NOT to like or even love him when he has done nothing but give them victory after victory and has done nothing wrong by them. aside from the few that know better or fall more in line of thralls thinking like you said its going to need to be something truly despicable to get the orcs to turn on him. maybe just maybe....kill thrall? i mean shit if they see him kill their once warchief/green jesus they will go against him. that and it will let someone else become war chief.

[Feral Camel]

The only other race this could work with is blood elves/high elves because they're pretty much the same race other than skin tone and eye color, and they already are split between the factions with high elves just unplayable.

I'd have no issue with the Alliance getting the High Elves and the Horde getting nothing. I think the high elves are an important part of Alliance.

---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 03:53 PM ----------

i mean shit if they see him kill their once warchief/green jesus die because of him they will go against him. that and it will let someone else become war chief.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along the lines of what happened at the Wrathgate. A blatant disregard of life.
I doubt Thrall will die by the hand of Garrosh. His to pivotal of a character.

[Sky High]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along the lines of what happened at the Wrathgate. A blatant disregard of life.
I doubt Thrall will die by the hand of Garrosh. His to pivotal of a character.

that. and thrall is Metzen's alter ego.

[Deleted]

Hopefully this means the Alliance finally gets to curbstomp the Horde into a bloody pulp and the survivors beg for mercy, leading to them and the Alliance victors storming Orgrimmar. After the pro-Horde wankfest that was Cataclysm this is a most welcome change to see the Horde firmly planted in villain territory and getting the punishment they deserve for it.

Blizzard will never allow half the player base to be either on the evil or losing side.

Garrosh will be the villain, but Horde players will become the brave resistance.

[mvaliz]

...if I know Metzen at all... his idea of "pushing the Horde apart" is to simply have Thrall go on "walkabout" in Silithus...

[Deleted]

Hopefully this means the Alliance finally gets to curbstomp the Horde into a bloody pulp and the survivors beg for mercy, leading to them and the Alliance victors storming Orgrimmar. After the pro-Horde wankfest that was Cataclysm this is a most welcome change to see the Horde firmly planted in villain territory and getting the punishment they deserve for it.

A fine day to you, Son of Bjorn. Your father praises you from Ulric's Hall.

[Sigmar]

A fine day to you, Son of Bjorn. Your father praises you from Ulric's Hall.

My only lament when the siege begins is I will lack an ox jaw to bludgeon the Orcs to death with.

[Talen]

Ok. If blizzard does something like having Varian in his pompous attitude claim the alliance needs to break the horde apart, and as high king he has the right to do so, thats is little surprise, i wouldn't expect anything less, given how he was the character who started this whole mess by pushing Garrosh on to become the war hungry bastard he now is.

A ridiculous assertion. Garrosh has been depicted as war hungry and an Orc supremecist ever since LK.

It was not the Alliance who froecd the Orcs to settle in Durotar. It was not the Alliance who rejected terms of trade because "trade is for the weak". It was not the Alliance who decided to launch an unprovoked war of agresssion. It was not the Alliance who poisoned Orgimmars water supply through pollution.

What god dam right does Varian have to declare 'the horde needs to be broken apart', like he's suddenly the ruler of azeroth.

Several conflicts started by the Horde plus the current war launched by a crazed power mad warmongering tyrant with delusions of grandeur and world domination kinda make it a good idea for him to at least try to weaken the Horde.

Against all that you have the temper tantrum he threw in Undercity when he found out what the Forsaken had been doing and to whom and the supposition that that act led to a short lived war that has never been shown, mentioned or referenced.

And more to the point, if this whole story is leading to some plothole where the alliance is the only ones taking the high ground in this

It won't. VJ starts the rebellion in 5.3, remember?

And yes, something that freaking big, the alliance is not deserving of it, since whatever whining they made in cataclysm, they honestly lost nothing of faction pride from it.

Seriously? Is that a joke? The Alliance "lost nothing of faction pride" in Catclysm? Is that really a serious point? Did you even play the game?

The Alliance story in Cataclysm was a complete and utter shambles, a travesty hugely unworthy of Blizzard. The list of what went wrong is long, and even Blizzard has acknowledged the mistakes.

The Worgen got shafted. The Alliance got defeated time and time again, often for no good reason. And even by NPCs. There was no balance in the story. Storylines were dropped, high points and quests of note were removed. Points of pride such as Nathanos Blightcallers death were retconned out of existence. The Alliance played comic relief to the Horde. Horde quests were copied over to the Alliance with no regard paid for whether anything made sense or tied up. Overdone faction neutrality. And more.

"No loss of faction pride"? There was nothing BUT loss of faction priode for the Alliance in Catclysm. There should have been balance...there wasn't.

I'd have no issue with the Alliance getting the High Elves and the Horde getting nothing. I think the high elves are an important part of Alliance.

And becoming more so strangely enough. It was a big complaint during Wrath that the HElfs got more storytime than some PC races. In a way, its a bit strange to see them pushed so aggressivly here.

EJL

[Deleted]

My only lament when the siege begins is I will lack an ox jaw to bludgeon the Orcs to death with.

Oh, that was retconned in Heldenhammer. Know you killed Vagraz Head-Stomper with Ghal-Maraz.

Bloody fine trilogy the Legend of Sigmar was. I read it solely to see Norscans kicking southling ass for the glory of Khorne, but your kind was pretty cool too.

[Whiteboard]

I could see the orc people turning on Garrosh when he starts doing things openly that stink a little too much of the sort of stuff the old horde got into. Demon blood, sniffing sha dust; we KNOW he's using dark shaman to warp and abuse the elements at the least. When their war hero begins appearing to just be another power-mad lunatic, which Orcs are well familiar with seeing by now, they might decide they've had enough of this stupidity.

[PizzaSHARK]

On the topic of more races becoming cross faction, I'm against it. Having one neutral race has worked out OK, but I wouldn't want to shatter the racial identities of the factions by opening it up to existing races. It would be horribly contrived to come up with reasons to have humans in the horde and orcs in the alliance. Let alone if you tried to do it to every race. The only other race this could work with is blood elves/high elves because they're pretty much the same race other than skin tone and eye color, and they already are split between the factions with high elves just unplayable.

I'm keen on the idea of faction-cooperative raids, scenarios, and dungeons - it makes sense for the Alliance and Horde to set aside differences to work together against a common enemy, and it's been done multiple times in the past.

I'm a bit leery of allowing players to be able to play any race in any faction, but I'm totally fine with NPCs doing that - small delegations of Horde races in Alliance cities and areas, and vice-versa. This makes perfect sense, especially for "cross-faction" classes like monks, druids, shamans, paladins and maybe even DKs. The various shaman races have plenty of things in common; same with the tauren sunwalkers and more traditional light-based paladins, and druids have always been buddies regardless of faction lines. DKs can talk about who makes the best eyeliner or something. Monks can talk about fighting and stuff while Ji hits on Aysa some more.

As for what'll happen... well, I hope they make Baine more interesting than just a carbon copy of Cairne. Cairne was kind of cool, but too one-dimensional, and that seems to be a problem with tauren in general from what I've seen in quests - they're all the same! Let's give em some damned personality, okay?

Vol'jin is an annoying pest, but I'm sure he'll be the star of the show. I've been enjoying the blood elves getting some spotlight in 5.2 quests, even if want to slap their pompous little faces every time I hear them speak. Forsaken will continue to be boring until we get rid of Sylvanas. Goblins will continue being comic relief, I imagine.

Mostly I just don't want Green Jesus to replace Garrosh. Let Thrall and his babymaker Aggra retire and show up periodically when the plot calls for a Mary Sue moment. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Rexxar take Garrosh's place as Warchief; he's something of a known quantity in that he's not an idiot, and he's also a known hero of the Horde. He also spent a lot of time running around with Chen Stormstout, who is a neutral party here, meaning Chen could vouch for him with the Alliance.

Then again, if the Alliance invades Orgrimmar, how're we gonna get them to leave? I don't see Varian, Magni (did we ever bust him out of that rock?), and the others leaving just because we asked nicely.

[Deleted]

"Patch 5.3 will tell the story that leads up to the Siege of Orgrimmar. Varian will bring the Alliance together and push the Horde apart."
(Taken from the front page)

After reading this, I can't wait to see what the 5.3 daily hubs will be like, especially from the Alliance PoV. I wonder what we could do to put them at ends with each other like sabotage missions or something. Will the simple unity of the Alliance be overwhelming and make the Horde leaders blame Garrosh for their disparities? Then how exactly would it work from the Horde PoV as well? Will their quest hub story line show them losing as it progresses? Maybe the quest hubs will actually start where both the horde and the alliance are outside the doors of Orgrimmar, slowly trying to invade its walls, similar to how the ToT dailies are now.

Anyone have their own ideas of what will happen?

I hope to see that >> Alliance are outside the doors of Orgrimmar. Trying to destroy Orgimmar, BUT I think it will not happen, becouse the Horde players need some major city!! XD

[Titan]

These are the races that story wise can end up on Alliance, and are currently on Horde or have a model that can be used.

-Blood Elves (just call them high-elves change some color)
-Goblins (new Cartel shows up)
-Tauren (there is infighting and different factions among them)
-Trolls (lots of troll tribes out there, good and bad)

Here are the races that could end up on Horde.

-Dwarves (many types of Dwarves, good, bad, evil and indifferent)
-Gnomes (many types of gnomes also, alliance fights gnomes all the time)

These are the most easy to explain. That said, Blizzard could easily change things and really through the storyline on it's head. They could have certain members of different races mend relationships with opposing factions.

Remember, the theme of the next expansion is Unity. Wrathion speaks about it in the legendary quest quite a bit.