Raiding guilds.

[Dazz]

I returned from a break of being a real hardcore raider during the years of TBC and WotLK and skipped the Cataclysm expansion due to the disappointment of bringing back Ragnaros and being abit burned out.
But trashtalking Cataclysm it for another day.

I have noticed during the last two months since i came back that there is a real shortage of 25 man guilds. Why is that?
I keep looking in the trade chat while afking and trying to figure out why 9/10 spams is 10 man guilds recruiting players. Have it become the easier content? or is it because of the less time consumption with managing it?

When i was at my peak of raiding i had my core 25 man raid and a selected 10 man group for hardmodes, achivements and "realm firsts" in 10man.
But the 10 man expirience always felt like a relaxed, less significant enviroment and alot less presure even if our ambition was to be the best group on the realm. The 25 man hours had more of a make it or break feeling. Fuck up and u were out, succeed and glory would come.

What i am trying to say is that making it through the 25 man content felt like a bigger achievment and maybe that is more of a personalized view but the diffrences now is HUGE.





The grey represents the amount of 10 man guild kills of a certain boss and the brown is the 25 man kills.

I have never managed a guild myself but is it really that hard? Are people lazy? Is 25 man harder?

What the fuck happened?

[Callypso]

In WotLK 10m gear was inferior to 25m gear, and achievements were seperate. That is no longer the case.

So in short, 10m gives the same rewards for less (operational) efforts than 25m. Having been an officer and/or GM for the past 5-6 years, I can honestly say that makes a huge difference.

[clevin]

In WotLK 10m gear was inferior to 25m gear, and achievements were seperate. That is no longer the case.

So in short, 10m gives the same rewards for less (operational) efforts than 25m. Having been an officer and/or GM for the past 5-6 years, I can honestly say that makes a huge difference.

^

Plus lockouts are shared so you need to decide which you'll do for the reset. If you can only do one, 10 man is easier to fill and it's easier to have subs around. The gear is the same though 25 has a slightly higher droprate/person. But for the raid leaders there's no real reason to do 25s vs 10s. If you have 25 people who want to raid, you have two 10 man groups with some alternates.

[Caladia]

I'd raid 25m over 10m if I found a 25m that fit my schedule. There are a lot more 10m guilds that run 2 days a week than there are 25m guilds.

[Dazz]

Sure it gives the same rewards now compared to previous expansions. But if you look at the list it also says that when it comes to the end bosses, 25 man and 10 man is pretty equal.
That could imply that 10man is easier that 25 man (i am not trying to start a which is easier thread) or that the 10 man guilds have no ambition to go for the end content

[Celarent]

Are people lazy? Is 25 man harder?

People are practical. For most of them, the experience and slight advantage in volume of loot isn't worth organizational challenges.

Speaking as a happy 25-man raider, I don't think it's the fault of players for making a sound cost-benefit calculation. Blizzard just made one of the two most damaging misjudgments of its customers in the game's history, and — perhaps understandably — is too terrified of the tectonic results to revert the system to Wrath's.

[NeverStop]

In WotLK 10m gear was inferior to 25m gear, and achievements were seperate. That is no longer the case.

So in short, 10m gives the same rewards for less (operational) efforts than 25m. Having been an officer and/or GM for the past 5-6 years, I can honestly say that makes a huge difference.

25 man gives more loot per person than 10 man, sp 25 mans gear up faster. 6 divided by 25 > 2 divided by 10.

[Defaulty]

I raid 10 mans because they are more fun and I feel more involved as a raider.
But forbid me for having an opinion and a preference.

[Deja Thoris]

It's harder to arrange 25 mans.

I'd write paragraphs but the above short sentence sums it up.

[Tearyn]

Yeah, what Deja said, the strain on the officers of a 25man guild compared to a 10man one, is easily underestimated.

With that, 25mans that don't work out can quite easily end up being remade into a 10man guild.
Meanwhile, a 10man guild that doesn't work out will also probably... Be remade into a new 10man guild.

[Cirque]

Having managed both, the management required for a 25 is blown far out of proportion compared to a 10. In both cases, without a proper roster you're screwed, and for a 25man it's much less likely to be short players, as it's much easier to rotate people in and out and have a roster that suits the need of the guild. In the rare circumstances where it did happen, we could go 10man, a luxury 10man does not have. As a result, we have a pretty big roster for a 10man, as very specific compo's (again, as opposed to 25man) are required for many heroic fights, not to mention that you have a big problem if some people cannot come. If everyone is here however this means a third of the roster is sitting out.

As for difficulty, that will be subjective. 10man will say 10man is harder, 25man will say 25 is harder. The fact of the matter is that both are roughly equal, where some fights are a lot harsher on the one difficulty and others on the other.

I would say there are a lot of 10man guilds because it is, as you correctly pointed out, a more relaxed environment (which is why I prefer 10man now, as opposed to the anonimity (in comparison, that is) of a 25man guild). For casual and social players, this is perfect: playing with a small group of friends and limiting the amount you have to pug every week. Furthermore, though managing a 10man at a high level is as time consuming as a 25 (really, it is), it is much less so on a casual scale. It is a lot harder to find 25 casual players, compared to 10, that are willing to show up on one or two nights a week.

---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 12:13 AM ----------

Yeah, what Deja said, the strain on the officers of a 25man guild compared to a 10man one, is easily underestimated.

With that, 25mans that don't work out can quite easily end up being remade into a 10man guild.
Meanwhile, a 10man guild that doesn't work out will also probably... Be remade into a new 10man guild.

See the above, it is, in fact, easily overestimated. I would actually argue I'd have an easier time dealing with my 25guild than I have dealing with our 10man, not in the least because of such specific compo requirements 10 has to suffer through.

Managing a guild is a headache either way. Most people who use this as an argument have never even been an officer, let alone a GM.

[Deleted]

But if you look at the list it also says that when it comes to the end bosses, 25 man and 10 man is pretty equal.
That could imply that 10man is easier that 25 man

Your implication is wrong, if the the 10 man kills are reducing by a bigger percentage than that of 25 mans, that would suggest that fights are harder on 10 man.

I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE

[Tearyn]

Having managed both, the management required for a 25 is blown far out of proport...


...See the above, it is, in fact, easily overestimated. I would actually argue I'd have an easier time dealing with my 25guild than I have dealing with our 10man, not in the least because of such specific compo requirements 10 has to suffer through.

Managing a guild is a headache either way. Most people who use this as an argument have never even been an officer, let alone a GM.

You may have found that to be the case, i imagine it changes significantly depending on your style of leadership, type of guild, progression, number of officers and their allocated duties, all that crap.

But that's certainly not been the case throughout my guild history.

[Viggers]

its pretty much due to 2 things. A, logistical reasons. B, guilds used to disband and the members would go looking for another 25 man. now, 25's just downsize if a disband is coming, keep their best 11 or 12 and probably do better because of it. when was the last time a 10man turned into a 25?

[Maester]

It's a whole lot easier to manage 10 people than 25 people. The rewards are the same. We can break down each fight and compare the 10 and 25 man difficulty of the fight by picking out the smallest of differences and trying to prove that one is harder than the other, but when it comes down to it they are so damn close that any average/semi-pro player wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

So it comes down to personal preference, and ease of operation beats having more people around you.

[Mormolyce]

It's simple, it no longer gives better gear so people who would prefer 10m (which I'd say is like 80-90% of all players) aren't forced to raid 25m.

P.S. You missed out, Rag was one of the coolest fights in Cata!

---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 02:02 AM ----------

25 man gives more loot per person than 10 man, sp 25 mans gear up faster. 6 divided by 25 > 2 divided by 10.

Yeah but those differences are marginal. Compared to the very present and obvious exhausting process of maintaining a 25m raiding roster.

[Deleted]

Logistics, and personally, I like that things are tighter in that 1 person's mistakes stand out more in a 10 man raid.

[Deleted]

It's just so much more rewarding to raid in a 10 man than a 25 man guild, which with equal rewards makes the choice really simple. You get to know all your members better (both as players and people, instead of a specific few in a 25 man guild), there's way more individual responsibility, you have a bigger role and you feel more like a group of friends than a "company" (for lack of a better word).

Me being an officer/raidleader is obviously also part of this. Purely as a raidleader I think both 10/25 has it's ups and downs. In 10 man I can focus much more on each individual raider, I have to make the best of every single tool and I can make a lot more on the fly adjustments and calls. For 25 man it's a lot more about drawing up a plan and assignments ahead of time, and you have a lot more tools to play around with, but making a significant amount of adjustments/on the fly decisions will usually cause too much confusion. As a comparison, we usually step into most fights 10 man fights without any plan plans for cd usage/rotations, I simply call out the cds when I feel it's appropriate (or for some players/fights, leaving its use to their discretion). For 25 man we usually had a rotation planned out for when many significant cds would be used and even when I made calls the players had a general understanding/explanation of when they were expected to use their cd (to avoid overlapping/me having to go too much into detail).

Regarding the officer role, various types of drama, personality and roster issues are a pain even in 10 mans. For 25 mans it's just ten times worse, especially due to the inevitable grouping, you sit, kick or just talk with one of them and suddenly you risk having to replace five geared players (and guilds have fallen apart due to less).

[Firebert]

The requirements to enter raiding guilds has tightened since WotLK, and 25m has fared less well than 10m.

With the joining of lockouts between 10m and 25m, there's no point to 25m guilds anymore (as the 10m used to be feeder guilds to them), multiplying the effect of my first statement.

All in all, it's raiding guilds killing themselves, which is a real shame.

[Deleted]

The requirements to enter raiding guilds has tightened since WotLK, and 25m has fared less well than 10m.

What? You need to spend a week gearing up to get a char up to the standard a guild raiding normal ToT should require, and if it isn't during progression you can easily join a more hardcore guild without any particularly harsh (gear)requirements, as long as you look like a promising player.