1. #1601
    Deleted
    Hello fellow Tankadins,

    I am quite new to the tank role, but we decided to let me as a pala tank this tear just because paladins are so much better than most of the other tanks in a 10m scenario.
    Although I am new to the role I think I am doing fine most of the time. But you know there is always something you are missing so I would be very pleased if you could check my latest logs and armory if I am missing something, doing completely wrong or in which fields I need to improve as a tankadin.

    I feel like my Sacred Shield uptime is really shit although I am casting it more than 80 times a fight. I am using it on other members if I am not tanking but is this a good idea?
    I think you are going to say that I have way to much health, therefore I should look at my sockets, but I have a felleing that my heals have a hard time keeping the raid and especially keeping the DK tank alive so I thought it would be good to relieve them a bit. That's also the reason I am using the Lao-Chins trinket.

    Here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...karon/advanced
    And here are our logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/254550/

    Hope you can have a quick look at my character

  2. #1602
    Using sacred shield on other raid members is fine, it just takes a few seconds for the first absorb to come up so its not really a quick save kind of spell. I'll often use it on my co-tank. Obviously, the more vengeance you have when you cast it, the better it will do.

    I like lao-chins just because it's an on use trinket as opposed to the numerous random proc ones. The philosophy for prot tanking is controlling incoming damage, so on use fits in with that very nicely. I'll change trinkets fight to fight but my standard progression setup is lao chins and jade warlord.

    Having high health is a-okay as long as you back it up with intelligent use of cooldowns and Shield of the Righteous. If you read sacredduty.net at all, Theck has a good post/rant about stamina here.

    Thecks other blog posts are also pretty useful. You don't need to understand the math, just look for the conclusions ans some of the reasoning behind them.

    As for sacred shield, its good to track that one just to keep it up. I use tellmewhen. Theck has a good post about sacred shields usefulness, or one that mentions it anyway. It scales linearly with haste. The more haste you have, the more often you get bubbles. At high vengeance, these bubbles can absorb a very hefty amount of damage. It's like a free block that can also reduce magic.

    EDIT: Weapon enchant

    I see you are using colossus. I would recommend changing that to dancing steel or river's song. It will always be a small absorb while bosses will only get stronger.

    For example, your lei shen kill. Colossus procced 69 (giggity) times. 69*7.5k= 517k. That's about a 2% damage reduction
    (total dmg + colossus absorbs) / total dmg =~ 1.02

    I think the other two end up giving you more dmg reduction, but I don;t have anthing to back that up with.
    Last edited by Monolith of Mazes; 2013-03-25 at 01:01 PM.

  3. #1603
    Deleted
    Never go for River Song.

    Dancing Steel / Windsong / Colossus / (Weapon Chain)

  4. #1604
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Never go for River Song.

    Dancing Steel / Windsong / Colossus / (Weapon Chain)
    I ran some rough numbers for total damage reduction (TDR) for River's Song and Dancing Steel. I used Fiskaron's raid buffed stats on Theck's paladin spreadsheet. I used damage taken data from Fiskaron's 2nd Lei Shen Kill.

    TLDR: river's song avoids .772% of melee attacks, but thats only considering a single stack of the buff. Realistically, it's a little higher. I aint no stats wiz. Dancing Steel avoids .7875% of melee attacks, and gives you an attack power boost. Both of these are lower in TDR than the 2% from colossus for Lei Shen.

    The messy napkin math version:

    Avoided attacks = n_attacks (average_buff_uptime_%) (buff_avoidance_%)

    I looked at my own logs to get a rough idea of Dancing Steel and River's Song uptimes. I did not calculate them. I saw uptimes as high as 50%+ or as low as 30%.
    Rough avg DS uptime: 45% RS Uptime: 40% (including single and double stacks)

    Applying the buff numbers of 1650 str and 1650 (single stack) dodge to Fiskaron, avoidance gains are
    DS: 1.75% parry
    RS: 1.93% dodge (single) and 3.74% dodge (double)

    DS Avoided Attacks = 100(.45)(.0175) = .7857
    RS Avoided Attacks = 100(.40)(.0193) = .772

    For the instance of lei shen kill #2, colossus reduces damage taken by a greater amount than either of the epic enchants. There is also a good chance of wasting uptime on the epic enchants in a fight like lei shen, whereas a colossus absorb will probably be used before it falls off.

    I would, personally, still not use colossus. I'd rather have a chance to avoid a large melee swing and save my healers some spike panic than to shave a hair (an amount unnoticeable to any healer) off of a lot of various sources. In this case, my recommendation would be Dancing Steel.

  5. #1605
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    I would, personally, still not use colossus. I'd rather have a chance to avoid a large melee swing and save my healers some spike panic than to shave a hair (an amount unnoticeable to any healer) off of a lot of various sources. In this case, my recommendation would be Dancing Steel.
    But that's exactly what you're doing by introducing more parry/dodge. If you had none then healers can cast at a set rate knowing you're going to take X damage every Y seconds, and that is good - it's why we go for haste/mastery, for smoothing - not because they're the best at reducing damage. By plugging some of that back in, you're upping the chance for the healers to think "wait wut". Also, with the parry one you could not get a single parry the whole way through a proc. You know with colossus that because it's small, you're going to use every last point of absorb for each proc you get. That's also good.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  6. #1606
    Sure, but we don't have 0 dodge or 0 parry or 0 block. Damage intake will fluctuate. Colossus saves you damage taken in a smoother way, but I'm not sure that it will affect how healers heal. They cant tell the difference between facesmash or facesmash-minus-7500. I can take hit-7500, hit-7500, hit-7500 or hit, hit, dodge/parry. That's of course really oversimplifying things.

    Mathy terms: LIMIT (hit-> inf) hit-7500 = hit. May as well not even have colossus on once we start getting smacked hard.

    So let me pose a question then: would you rather tank with NO enchant or tank with an avoidance one. Tanking with no enchant WOULD be less spikey than tanking with an avoidance one.

    In the end, for any lurking protadins reading this, as long as we use SotR effectively, we could probably tank with fiery weapon and still live

  7. #1607
    While you might get the proc up when not active tanking, the strength benefit will still be of some use for a dps increase. With the number of people going around discussing how to maximise dps while tanking (and not active tanking), Dancing Steel gives the biggest benefit towards that as well.

  8. #1608
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Please continue with the mathy terms because it makes me think about my degree (I should really be doing that) and also it scares away people who... well... aren't me. And a select few. Brings some variation into the posts

    .................... For the millionth time, follow the rotation as posted on the front page. If you're not GCD capped minus maybe 1 every 30seconds you're doing it wrong. Don't wait. Just hit buttons in the order we've written out. No, not like that. Yes, that's better. Oh look, now you don't die.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2013-03-25 at 05:11 PM.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  9. #1609
    Deleted
    @Monolith. The error in your thought process is that you presume that tanks or healers care about TDR. Damage reduction with no predictability and low occurance, high effect (a.k.a. dodge or parry) are most often completely wasted into overhealing, and provide no real benefit. The only exception to this rule in this tier is Tortos bats, which is the only valid fight for dodge or parry as defensive stats.

    Same goes for Colossus. It is so small, and given the amount of time that tanks spend at 100% health, over 90% (That is a generous number, probably closer to 95) of the colossus procs are completely wasted into overhealing and have no real effect.

    So really, both of those enchants are completely useless for tanking purposes. This leaves two choices. Dancing Steel and Windsong.

    DS purely for the attack power from it. I used to prefer DS in T14, due to having lower vengeance numbers, aswell as so many bosses that stopped melee attacking you. In this tier however, there are so many solo tank fights, atleast in normal, and so many fights where it is duo tank (as in both tanks active, not 1 tank on boss and 1 tank jerking off in a corner).

    This has caused me to now favor Windsong over DS as it is on MOST fights, a much larger dps increase than DS.

  10. #1610
    Oh god the double posting horror. I'm so bad at forums.

    @Firefly::
    Yeah, I agree, TDR isn't the way to approach tanking with our shiny new active mitigation style. There's really no way to compare the wep enchants without TDR, though. They're all random procs. They're all TDR. So, like you said, instead of thinking of wep enchants as a way to increase survivability, let's think of them as a way to rank on World o-... I mean, meet tight dps checks.

    @MerinPally::
    Yay math.

    @Promdate::
    I agree.

  11. #1611
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Monolith of Mazes View Post
    @Firefly::
    Yeah, I agree, TDR isn't the way to approach tanking with our shiny new active mitigation style. There's really no way to compare the wep enchants without TDR, though. They're all random procs. They're all TDR. So, like you said, instead of thinking of wep enchants as a way to increase survivability, let's think of them as a way to rank on World o-... I mean, meet tight dps checks.
    I do not understand what is so bad about tanks caring about dps.
    This "Tanks are only punchingbags made of meat"-mentality lives on.
    What is the difference if a dps can push out 60k more dps or a tank can push out 60k more dps?
    Other than that it is probably easier for a tank to increase his dps with 60k than a dps.
    Does it matter in your raid who does the extra dps? If you can deal extra dps as a tank, why not? Even if you can kill a boss, it is easier if you have more dps.
    If an enrage timer requiers 500k raid dps to kill the boss, and you have 600k raid dps, the boss would not exactly be harder if you had 700k instead of 600k, only faster and easier.

    Which brings back to the weapon enchants, none of them is attractive from a "tank" PoV So naturally that leads to checking them at a DPS PoV.
    Come to think of it, the only tank enchant that actually speaks to me the most for tanking, is the mastery proc on windsong. It is not great, but at least better than the other tank enchants. And then windsong also have the benefit of the highest dps increase of all the enchants through crit and haste.

    I think it is safe to say that Windsong is the best enchant for us. Atleast in 10 man. And that I say only because I have no first hand tank experience from 25 man this tier. So do not want to make statements about 25 man without anything to back it up with.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-03-25 at 05:44 PM.

  12. #1612
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I do not understand what is so bad about tanks caring about dps.
    This "Tanks are only punchingbags made of meat"-mentality lives on.
    Sorry if my reply seemed sarcastic, I was honestly agreeing. I enjoy WoL ranks as much as the next guy.

  13. #1613
    Deleted
    While WoL ranks are nice epeen boosts, in the end, its just about killing the bosses.

  14. #1614
    Deleted
    Guys, sorry to break the line of conversation but I come again asking for your wisdom.

    We killed Durumu and Primordius last night (Primordius was joke, downed on the 2nd attempt, only failed first 'cuz nobody remembered what the Pathogen mutation was) and we gave Dark Animus a couple tries and we, basically, had our tanks get destroyed by the two adds.

    I think it's the standard tactic, but in case it's different I'll expain what was going on: We had every player take a small add (making sure they don't buff each other) and both tanks take 2 adds each and, like I said, those 2 adds were shredding us.

    What'd you do for this? Is the only solution placing them so you stand between'em, thus avoiding the buff? I saw Fatboss suggest that but they said it wasn't *necessary* or something. We'd never had tanking problems up until now. Even in Primordius we both got up to 8 stacks once (each) so the other could get mutated for LOLDPS and had no issues.

    Thanks!

  15. #1615
    They way I dealt with tanking 2 anima golem's was using judgment to start the fight (1hopo) then getting a CS/judge onto the golems before they activate and immediately using SoTR, when that's about to go down I chained GoAK. Usually at least 1 of my adds was dead by this time, but if not I'd use HoPur and that'd cover the last few seconds. If you need to use a lot of your cooldowns on these 2 adds to survive, the rest of the fight isn't particularly dangerous unless you hit something bad, in which case you'd most likely be dead anyway.

  16. #1616
    Deleted
    Hah, so I suppose I really SHOULD pop cooldowns here? It was just a few late-night tries so I wasn't really thinking it all through and was apprehensive to blow cooldowns that early in the engagement. Thanks.

  17. #1617
    Deleted
    If they get linked, they hit like a truck, I did as dreads and opened with a sotr then followed it with a GoAK and add was dead and you're safe and sound again.

  18. #1618
    Deleted
    pull, shotr, goak, 1 add dies, aggro on massive golen, HA, taunt another small one, move to middle, taunt one by one of the small golems.
    You could even use DP and noob defender as CDs. I see no point later in the fight, where u need those CDs again.

  19. #1619
    Deleted
    Ofc you should use cooldowns there. Its the only hard time in this fight everything else is just nuking the boss till hes dead and some switching for the tanks, atleast in the way we did it. Furthermore you will have GoAK ready again at the end of the fight.

  20. #1620
    Deleted
    I was actually considerin respeccing to HA for Dark Animus, lol first, but then I realised they die so fast so it was not worth it. Just popped GoAK early on and 1 add was dead shortly after. Don't be afraid to blow CDs on them.

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