This comment annoys me.

[Komie]

Posted on the front page

"Now the PvP'rs who focus soley or mostly on PvP are actually going to be worse off when fighting other players in the world. While players who do not PvP at all and only raid are going to have an advantage. It's not fun when the PvP gear you've worked so hard to get is only useful when you zone in to an arena or a battleground. And is otherwise useless. "

Honestly, if it comes down to someone who is in PVP gear vs. someone in PVE gear in World PVP... the guy in PVP gear has the advantage.

Why?

Because he's experienced at PVP and knows how to react and counter.

I myself, hate PVP. I like PVE. Therefor, since I don't PVP, I suck at it. If I have the best PVE gear in the game, and come across someone who is a tier or so under me in PVP gear, that PVP guy will win.

He knows what to do, how to react, I do not.

See my point?

[Snuggli]

since I don't PVP, I suck at it. If I have the best PVE gear in the game, and come across someone who is a tier or so under me in PVP gear, that PVP guy will win.

I understand your point, but the problem is, is that there are people who play WoW and raid top-end guilds with multiple gladiator titles. People who PvE and PvP at top levels will have a straight up gear advantage in WPvP -- i'm not saying whether it's a good or bad thing, but this is the situation I think a lot of people are worried about.

Also, knowing that the best gear available for World PvP is from PvE gets some people a little ticked off.

[Korgoth]

Why is this hard to understand, PVE'ers whine when a conq weapon is better then LFR FFS. Its the same shit. You dont want to even have to consider stepping into some 2s for a Conq weapon, yet cant understand why a World PVPer wouldnt want to have to consider stepping into a raid? Cmon now.

[AwdBawl]

Also, knowing that the best gear available for World PvP is from PvE gets some people a little ticked off.

This. Gaining a PvP benefit without suffering through PvP hardships is (in my opinion) the real issue here.

It is the free handouts that bug me the most. I worked for my resilience; PvE players did not. And yet here we are.

I will kill a PvE player with or without their handicaps, but many of the PvP community see this as undeserved pandering. It is a trivialization of everything PvP players up to now had to buck up and deal with to get where they are.

After months of runs for tier gear, would not a heroic DPS feel contempt for a PvP player that waltzed into the instance for the first time in mismatched tyrannical gear and rocked the charts? I think so.

[Theodoxus]

Oh waaah. QQ moar.

I'm sick and tired of decent PVE abilities being nerfed to shit because they had some unforeseen consequence in PVP. I blame Blizz and their utter lack of ability/desire/whatever to make the two aspects completely different. Seriously, how hard can it be to flag abilities used against another player to behave differently than against mobs? But no. They take the lazy way out and try to balance both aspects of the game.

I've done my share of PVP - I've been on the high side of nearly unkillable healers and the low side of unable to do shit feral. I've weathered change like a champ - and this is just another attempt to balance the crap that is pvp in WoW. But only when PVP is divorced from PVE will any semblance of balance even be possible.

[Rorke]

This. Gaining a PvP benefit without suffering through PvP hardships is (in my opinion) the real issue here.

So PvP hardships means gaining a conquest cap every week? That still exists by the way. It's not as if its gone, its only that the grind treadmill has been reduced to reasonable levels. If gear and stats are important to you, you should be a heroic raider.

I thought the whole reason people engage in player vs player situations was to beat a real person and indulge in a competitive atmosphere. The hardships shouldn't come from a 6 month tedious gear treadmill, but from actually competing against other players for the sake of competition. Why do people feel the need to be rewarded in pvp?

[AwdBawl]

So PvP hardships means gaining a conquest cap every week?

No, PvP hardships are getting thrashed by well-established players that started before you. Losing battlegrounds over and over since you contribute nearly nothing to your team. I'm not saying it's a good thing to experience or that all players should suffer as others have suffered, but you must concede that watching someone get everything you got--for little to no effort--is aggravating. Especially so when it was not easy or particularly enjoyable at times to procure in the first place.

I thought the whole reason people engage in player vs player situations was to beat a real person and indulge in a competitive atmosphere. The hardships shouldn't come from a 6 month tedious gear treadmill, but from actually competing against other players for the sake of competition. Why do people feel the need to be rewarded in pvp?

For the same reason players like you feel the need to kill the same NPC as the last 4 weeks, but maybe 20 seconds faster. Since PvE is a of a co-operative mindset, what does getting gear matter for you personally? Why should you be rewarded with gear for killing a boss faster than some other guild, making the time disparity between clears even greater? That other guild's trying hard too, you know; think of their feelings!

Why not make all PvE gear cosmetic and standardize boss & NPC health respectively for every zone and tier? You still gain a handful of stats when you level up, right? Everything would be "Challenge Mode". Everything. Prove your skill at killing bosses through group dynamic and co-operation instead of Recount charts. I'm sure this would go over just as well as cosmetic PvP gear.

P.S. - Devs that follow this philosophy are why Guild Wars II failed in providing engaging end-game content for both PvE and PvP.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The problem is PVP is much harder to balance then PVE.

[Rorke]

No, PvP hardships are getting thrashed by well-established players that started before you. Losing battlegrounds over and over since you contribute nearly nothing to your team. I'm not saying it's a good thing to experience or that all players should suffer as others have suffered, but you must concede that watching someone get everything you got--for little to no effort--is aggravating. Especially so when it was not easy or particularly enjoyable at times to procure in the first place.


For the same reason players like you feel the need to kill the same NPC as the last 4 weeks, but maybe 20 seconds faster. Since PvE is a of a co-operative mindset, what does getting gear matter for you personally? Why should you be rewarded with gear for killing a boss faster than some other guild, making the time disparity between clears even greater? That other guild's trying hard too, you know; think of their feelings!

Why not make all PvE gear cosmetic and standardize boss & NPC health respectively for every zone and tier? You still gain a handful of stats when you level up, right? Everything would be "Challenge Mode". Everything. Prove your skill at killing bosses through group dynamic and co-operation instead of Recount charts. I'm sure this would go over just as well as cosmetic PvP gear.

P.S. - Devs that follow this philosophy are why Guild Wars II failed in providing engaging end-game content for both PvE and PvP.

New players will still get thrashed by older more experienced players. The gang initiation still exists, its just that Blizzard wants to make it more tolerable for newer players. I still don't understand what is wrong with this. Wow's PvP shouldn't be some elite club where only the few who put themselves through enough abuse should survive. Its should be about getting new/inexperienced players a stepping stone to at least see the good side of it. Hopefully, more people will be more interested in pvp with these changes. More people = more competition.

I've grinded pvp gear since season 6 (That's when I actually hit level cap). Did it suck? Yeah it does. But I don't think new players or PvE players should always be punished the way we were.

As for your second point about gearing in PvE. You're right about PvE and top guilds being competitive but you need to remember that gear is something that actually fits hand in hand with it. I'm no dragonslayer, but I do know that hardcore players spend probably more time min/maxing their character through spreadsheets and things like shadowcraft than actually playing the game. PvE is basically the role playing aspect of the game even though the player may not be a Roleplayer. In an RP game, the main idea is to have the sense of advancement with your character. That is why multiple tiers of gear in PvE exist.

As for your Guild Wars 2 point, I can't really respond. I've never played that game and I'm glad I didn't fall prey to it. You have to remember that there still is a gear factor in Wow's pvp. There are just less barriers.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Guild Wars PVP I believe was MUUUCH different to WOW PVP.

[AwdBawl]

As for your second point about gearing in PvE. You're right about PvE and top guilds being competitive but you need to remember that gear is something that actually fits hand in hand with it. I'm no dragonslayer, but I do know that hardcore players spend probably more time min/maxing their character through spreadsheets and things like shadowcraft than actually playing the game. PvE is basically the role playing aspect of the game even though the player may not be a Roleplayer. In an RP game, the main idea is to have the sense of advancement with your character. That is why multiple tiers of gear in PvE exist.

This is also why a feeling of advancement is necessary for PvP. The game does not change simply because your target does. The "R" and "P" do not disappear from "RPG" when I target a player. There is plenty of number-crunching and theory-crafting in PvP. But the feeling of accomplishment does not last in simply having killed one of the opposing faction. It is not tangible, and is not fulfilling in the long-run. Gear is long-term. Gear is visible and does not require an armory inspection every time someone makes a claim.

Also without gear advancement all you have to swing your e-peen around is your word. Word is worthless, and e-peen is everything, of course.

[Deleted]

Seriously, how hard can it be to flag abilities used against another player to behave differently than against mobs?

This is something I cannot stand. I want a seamless MMO world, without 1000 special rules for special places in special situations. This gets worse, and worse and worse... from my point of view for no reason.

I don't get the reason for resilience and pvp power in the first place. Get rid of them and get rid of ilvl differences between PvE and PvP. Resilience equals EHP, we could have that directly through more HP and through higher mob damage, to compensate in PvE.

[Deleted]

Kinda hilarious when you think about this:

Blizzard removed the old talent tree and made a new one with less options so they could balance the skills in it since they had a hard time doing it before. Did they make it? Nope! And why should you get some of the best PVP gear in the PVE content? That thing alone just sounds weird as hell! And now they release patches faster than ever meaning that the guys who work with balancing the game can´t caught up with it. They don´t even make the old content balanced before they just get more content out, meaning they have to start all over again. As long as Blizzard decides to release content faster the game will be forever unbalanced.
But you can always wish for a miracle, they sure need it!

[rzy]

Oh waaah. QQ moar.

I'm sick and tired of decent PVE abilities being nerfed to shit because they had some unforeseen consequence in PVP. I blame Blizz and their utter lack of ability/desire/whatever to make the two aspects completely different. Seriously, how hard can it be to flag abilities used against another player to behave differently than against mobs? But no. They take the lazy way out and try to balance both aspects of the game.

I've done my share of PVP - I've been on the high side of nearly unkillable healers and the low side of unable to do shit feral. I've weathered change like a champ - and this is just another attempt to balance the crap that is pvp in WoW. But only when PVP is divorced from PVE will any semblance of balance even be possible.

This point is stupid, if something is doing FAR too much damage in PvP 90% of the time it is doing far too much in PvE and causing people to be far ahead on DPS, s5 Bladestorm comes to mind...it was ridiculous in PvP and PvE and needed a change 5 stack warriors were also stupidly huge on damage last season in both.

[worsthitmanNa]

Resilience was put it the game to counter pver's with high end pve gear and pvp power was put in the game to stop the use of pve gear in pvp. Res is better then stamina stacking and Your second idea would require them to rework the whole game.