Guilds of today would clear BC's SWP (non-gated) in the first reset

[Dangg]

Depends.
Do they start at the release of SWP or months prior so they can farm BT with 5 different alts?

[Deleted]

Considering most of the top guilds (BL/Method/Paragon - under different names for some) all raided back then and didn't pretty much gives you your answer..

Wow now is a complete joke, I don't see how practicing a boss for unlimited hours on a test realm constitutes being better? Nor how funneling gear into a multitude of alts so you can have the perfect raid set up constitutes harder? Yes they put in more time, but time doesn't mean more skill, it never has.

[Drfireburns]

Pre nerf? No way in hell. SWP was a ridiculous hard raid at the time. Not many guilds even made it past Brutallus, so anything M'uru or further was a true challenge. The guild I was in could barely down Brutallus, and we were the first guild on our server clearing BT/Illidan weekly. Felmyst was even difficult for a lot of guilds. So to say that guilds of today would just dinner roll in and down everything before a reset is kind of pushing it.

[Peso]

No, and even if they could who cares. It was still the hardest raid of it's time by light-years.

[Miraclous]

bear in mind that the top guilds of today spend hundreds of hours on PTR learning tactics for the new raids so essentially they've already done the practice runs that would take people time.

Hundreds of hours when each boss test lasts about 1-2 hours

[KaPe]

Hundreds of hours when each boss test lasts about 1-2 hours

Oh, that's easy - they just do it on multiple chars.

Wait...

[Extremities]

How about not letting a bunch of guilds test raids, figure out the strats on the test server and pass them out so others can copy everything once its released and the shits all beaten the same day... THAT needs to stop if we want any longevity to return to raids. Blizzard allowing raid guilds to test the raids is whats killing the longevity. If you think otherwise, your ignorant. When they didnt allow that, raids actually took time but now with them letting guilds tackle it on the test server, it ruins any longevity.

[Pasture]

Guilds today are vastly superior than guilds back then, partly helped by the increase in abilities that allow more options for cheesing mechanics.

[Mad_Murdock]

So perhaps you can explain to an old fart such as myself exactly what it is that WoW has brought to gaming in the past 5 years that would baffle competitive gamers of years gone by? Because whatever it is, I just can't see it.

I believe it's the thing that makes people say Michael Jordan better than Wilt Chamberlain and Kobe better than Jordan and now Lebron greater than them all. The current generation is always going to think their guy is better than the previous generation.

[Gondlem]

Wow now is a complete joke, I don't see how practicing a boss for unlimited hours on a test realm constitutes being better? Nor how funneling gear into a multitude of alts so you can have the perfect raid set up constitutes harder? Yes they put in more time, but time doesn't mean more skill, it never has.

What are you talking about? Top guilds in Sunwell did use the perfect raid comp, which is why world first M'uru had four resto shamans or whatever. PTR has been around since Blackwing Lair, and it was definitely around for Sunwell. The only boss that wasn't tested is Kil'jaeden, same as now. You can't test a boss for unlimited hours on PTR, you can test it for around two hours at most. And anyone who has raided at a high level since vanilla/TBC will tell you that fights are just as if not more mechanically challenging now than ever before.

A lot of things about WoW have gotten easier over the years, but the top level of raiding is not one of them.

[Scottyjscizzle]

Honestly, I would love to see any of the top guilds come into a raid fresh no eight months worth of ptr practice and really race for the lead. Not saying they are unskilled or I'm better would just be interesting to me to see how long it would really take them to get a fight without prior knowledge/practice at it.

[Posokhov]

No.

Due to necessity of finding raiders in the current state of WoW, current top raiding guilds are filled with disgusting skilless trash who wouldn't have made it past Razorgore, much less pre-nerf Vash & Kael.

Anyone who has been in a top raiding guild since classic will be able to confirm that.

Bahahaha. That's just funny. Razorgore? Really? If you took the absolute best 40-man raid guild of vanilla and threw that guild into current heroic raids, they'd still be 2/13 heroic and be posting on their site that "Council of Elders is mathematically impossible unless you exploit". People in vanilla and TBC went to the "mathematically impossible" argument at almost every opportunity just to explain why they didn't instantly kill a boss. When enrage timers were balanced around 20% of your raid being AFK (BWL in a nutshell) and people still hit the enrage, you know raiding wasn't even taken seriously by Blizzard. 4 Horsemen, at its original difficulty, is the only vanilla fight that *might* be hard enough to be a heroic currently, and it would still be easier than heroic Council of Elders in the current tier.

[Peso]

Bahahaha. That's just funny. Razorgore? Really? If you took the absolute best 40-man raid guild of vanilla and threw that guild into current heroic raids, they'd still be 2/13 heroic and be posting on their site that "Council of Elders is mathematically impossible unless you exploit". People in vanilla and TBC went to the "mathematically impossible" argument at almost every opportunity just to explain why they didn't instantly kill a boss. When enrage timers were balanced around 20% of your raid being AFK (BWL in a nutshell) and people still hit the enrage, you know raiding wasn't even taken seriously by Blizzard. 4 Horsemen, at its original difficulty, is the only vanilla fight that *might* be hard enough to be a heroic currently, and it would still be easier than heroic Council of Elders in the current tier.

Current raiding is a joke and it is easily seen by how fast the content is cleared.

[Maelstrom51]

Current raiding is a joke and it is easily seen by how fast the content is cleared.

I'm not so sure. I don't think guilds were putting 500-1000 attempts into a raid a week like they are currently.

[Brakthir]

Current raiding is a joke and it is easily seen by how fast the content is cleared.

And you're delusional.

[Aqua]

I would say yes, the community always seems to overlook the fact that over the years the raiding community has evolved in terms of efficiency and organization. Even the most hardcore of the 'old days' were about what mid range (Rank 100-1000ish) do now.

The level expected from top players now is nothing less than perfection on practiced fights, and the mechanics in SWP are fairly less convoluted than some of the ones today. Barring M'uru's overwhelming mob fiesta I don't think any of the top guilds today would spend more than one reset period on SWP (In BC gear/skills)

I've seen some of the people playing on BC frozen private servers and their understanding of the skills and gear is now on a level I feel the top guilds have consistently at their disposal from Test Realm and stat weighing, the raid encounters are all cakewalks. Practiced or not.

[Deleted]

And you're delusional.

And quite stupid as well.

Seriously did you read anything from this thread? The people who downed the so called hard boss in SWP did that in 45 hours... spread across 5 days. That guy would go down at least twice as fast if you look at the time spent per day.

So why exactly did SWP last that long? Gating.
It would be fun to see how fast bosses would go down nowadays with gating... oh wait. T14 had gating. It took what.. 8 weeks in order to die?! Now multiply that number by the amount that people raided more in T14 than SWP.

16 weeks. 16 WEEKS WORTH OF CONTENT FOR THE MOST HARDCORE!

[Magally]

Current raiding is a joke and it is easily seen by how fast the content is cleared.

Yeah bro, 3 boss mechanics was hard. Cleansing a dot, killing an add and healing. Badass mechanics there, and they applied to most bosses before AQ.

[Brakthir]

Raiding has never been harder than it is now. Challenges keep getting harder.

[Beet]

Seeing as most top guild members say they wouldn't, I'll defer to their opinion.

I'm 100% sure no guild would clear original vanilla Naxx fully within the first reset. In fact I'd doubt if one could have cleared AQ40 in one reset.

Certain fights have gone down in history as the hardest around. Twin Emperors (To a lot), C'Thun, Four Horsemen, Kel'Thuzad, Muru, Yogg 0, H25 Lich King, Ragnaros Pre-Nerf, and now possibly Lei Shen. I've talked to a lot of people who've raided hardcore from day 1 to this day and opinions always differ but I was surprised how many listed the original Four Horsemen as the hardest.

It also disgusts me how many people here call the guilds from back in the day 'shit'. Death & Taxes was one of the best guilds to ever play WoW. And Nihilium as well. In my opinion though Heroic Lich King 25 will be the most grueling boss ever produced for a long time to come.