Frustrating LFR - How do we fix this mentality?

[Maleric]

Actually, when I claim excess difficulty caused the losses, I can point to the synchrony of the ramp-up and the decline (when Cata released in the west, and then 2 Q later in China.) I can also point to Blizzard statements. Thiese data do not support the notion that LFR caused the decline.

That's disingenuous. Blizzard may have said that difficulty caused the subscription decline in tier eleven, but even if was true they wouldn't come out and say that LFR was the cause of the subscription declines during tier thirteen and fourteen. They only addressed the tier eleven difficulty issue after they'd decided to change it. The lack of blue confirmation doesn't make it any less probable that LFR contributed to subscription declines in the middle of tier thirteen and fourteen.

[Osmeric]

That's disingenuous. Blizzard may have said that difficulty caused the subscription decline in tier eleven, but even if was true they wouldn't come out and say that LFR was the cause of the subscription declines during tier thirteen and fourteen. They only addressed the tier eleven difficulty issue after they'd decided to change it. The lack of blue confirmation doesn't make it any less probable that LFR contributed to subscription declines in the middle of tier thirteen and fourteen.

Nevertheless, they DID say increased difficulty was a problem, and the DIDN'T say LFR was a problem. Why do you think they'd confess to one issue, and not the other? And anyway, we were talking about the existence of evidence. Their statements are evidence. Second hand, granted, but evidence nonetheless.

[Firebert]

Why do try to put words in my mouth? I never said that the top tank and the top healer are the only ones who should get loot, so can you stop this BS already? It's completely out of context and you're just trying to make it look like, I don't want anyone to get anything.

Well, you set an arbitrary line that zero DPS = zero loot. I'll set an arbitrary line that only the top three players for their roles (as outlined above). They're both as valid as each other. Mine's clearly not. Hence, yours clearly isn't.

I said, that people being afk doing ZERO dps/healing shouldn't be eligible for loot - there's a huge difference (in case you didn't notice).

There's no difference in principle.

[Osmeric]

Well, you set an arbitrary line that zero DPS = zero loot. I'll set an arbitrary line that only the top three players for their roles (as outlined above). They're both as valid as each other. Mine's clearly not. Hence, yours clearly isn't.

For your next trick, you will demonstrate that because hanging someone for littering is clearly not a valid punishment, neither is fining them $250.

[fangless]

LFR is just an extension of this game year by year becoming easier to digest. Each something is added to allow players to get items slightly easier, they complain and Blizzard responds by making it even more simple.

LFR mode, press a queue button, follow mob until boss, DPS as soft as you want, if you're not afk, and possibly get 502 epics. Simple, right? Spend an hour of time, possibly get items that outside of LFR, would take hours to weeks.


NOT EASY ENOUGH! "I don't get loot, RNG is horrible, need fix Bliz plz!!!~@", etc.

What does Blizzard do? Initially state that random chance is good for loot. But, of course, they give in and implement both a token system for chance at MORE loot, and now an increasing luck modifier after you don't get loot for all your "hard work". The playerbase has proven that if they complain enough about something being too hard, Blizzard will cave in and sway from THEIR design views.

[rated]

I feel people are exaggerating here, LFR isn't nearly as horrible as people make it out to be in my experience.

You are both right and wrong. Like the rest of this game its completely RNG and determined on who you get grouped up with. Last week on my Druid I did both LFR's in ToT and didn't wipe once as we 1 shot every boss. I did the same 2 LFR's on my monk and we wiped on council 7 times because no one would switch to empowered boss. One experience was enjoyable the other really frustrating.

[blackpink]

On the other hand... what was Windlord like the first week or two he was open in LFR? I imagine if you had a raid mostly just at 470 who'd not seen him in normal and who didn't know to CC the menders it was a disaster until a few people said "OK, CC all the menders but this one. Burn him, then everything else". Now? It's been a trivial fight for a long time because we all know it and outgear it..

Believe it or not, people still wipe on that fight (alot, not just once or twice) and a bunch of other fights in msv lfr, it's really sad.

[Firebert]

For your next trick, you will demonstrate that because hanging someone for littering is clearly not a valid punishment, neither is fining them $250.

Raiding and littering aren't analogous. One's an in-game activity defined by Blizzard, the other's a real life activity that's more or less illegal everywhere.

[Osmeric]

Raiding and littering aren't analogous. One's an in-game activity defined by Blizzard, the other's a real life activity that's more or less illegal everywhere.

The cool thing about logic fallacies is that they can be recognized in entirely disparate domains.

That's what I did to you, reusing your error in another domain, to show how absurd your argument was.

Perhaps a better rephrasing would have been "it would be improper to fine someone $100 million for littering, therefore it's also improper to fine them $250." The logical fallacy is that of saying that if X can be continuously transformed into Y, then X and Y are the same.

[Deleted]

For your next trick, you will demonstrate that because hanging someone for littering is clearly not a valid punishment, neither is fining them $250.

Given you can only fine them $250 if you have the power to hang them (but don't) it's not.

He's right, the guy decided an arbitary (and ofc self serving) cut off point for loot.

[Firebert]

Perhaps a better rephrasing would have been "it would be improper to fine someone $100 million for littering, therefore it's also improper to fine them $250." The logical fallacy is that of saying that if X can be continuously transformed into Y, then X and Y are the same.

Still not analogous. The reason for the fine is to subsidise the clean-up of multiple litterings (fly tipping, etc). The fine is balanced by the costs incurred by the action of littering.

There's no such isomorphism to raiding.

My point still stands.

[Osmeric]

He's right, the guy decided an arbitary (and ofc self serving) cut off point for loot.

If there is a continuous range of outcomes, you have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, you get into the silliness of equating any things that can be continuously deformed into one another.

[clevin]

How about this? Accept that LFR is always going to be a mix of good players who are doing it for VP or the odd chance at an upgrade outside of their normal raid, good players who can't do a regular raid schedule, average players who aren't going to light up the meters but are doing fine for what LFR is, new people who are learning to do their role in a raid setting and poor players/AFKers, etc.

Just deal with that. Accept that it's not going to be as fast or as clean as most good raid guilds and that there will likely be wipes or silly things, especially as people see the fights for the first few times. Sure, people SHOULD watch videos, but they don't. Again, accept that.

Or, if all of that really bothers you STAY THE HELL OUT OF LFR.

I'm not excusing the AFKers and really bad people but frankly the people who annoy me are the whining little epeen strokers who, after a wipe, rant about how easy it is and how everyone else sucks. Take some personal responsibility - if it hurts you, stop doing it.

[Deleted]

If there is a continuous range of outcomes, you have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, you get into the silliness of equating any things that can be continuously deformed into one another.

That's why anyone with any sense operates from principles, not aiming for outcomes.

The principle of being there = chance at loot is a lot better than trying to control the outcome.

[Firebert]

If there is a continuous range of outcomes, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Or you just don't draw the line at all and give everyone loot regardless of activity, which is what we have now.

[Deleted]

Still not analogous. The reason for the fine is to subsidise the clean-up of multiple litterings (fly tipping, etc). The fine is balanced by the costs incurred by the action of littering.

There's no such isomorphism to raiding.

My point still stands.

This isn't true, as what is missing is the lost productivity of the supervision element. i.e. it's almost certainly going to be better to pay for clean up than to try to prevent, given what you need to implement to prevent.

[schwank05]

Believe it or not, people still wipe on that fight (alot, not just once or twice) and a bunch of other fights in msv lfr, it's really sad.

All you need on that fight is a Tank, they will do 4-700K dps and also top healing meters, Dont waste time on CC, or an OT just go in one tank and all heals focus them, and aoe the boss dead. Pally tanks are especially epic on that fight.

[Osmeric]

That's why anyone with any sense operates from principles, not aiming for outcomes.

The principle of being there = chance at loot is a lot better than trying to control the outcome.

Um, what? The problem is trying to discourage bad behavior. Having zero output is unacceptable behavior. Your phobia about drawing a line somewhere means that you cannot punish it.

The solution is to jettison your silly principle and draw a line at some more reasonable place.

"The principle of being there = chance at loot is a lot better than trying to control the outcome" seems completely unjustified and, frankly, ludicrous.

---------- Post added 2013-04-01 at 05:44 PM ----------

Or you just don't draw the line at all and give everyone loot regardless of activity, which is what we have now.

Which means being ok with de facto griefing. I categorically deny that this is acceptable.

[Deleted]

Um, what? The problem is trying to discourage bad behavior. Having zero output is unacceptable behavior. Your phobia about drawing a line somewhere means that you cannot punish it.

it isn't zero output, the raid is doing just fine.

There is already a mechanism for punishment (several, actually) and no one uses them.

The solution is to jettison your silly principle and draw a line at some more reasonable place.

if you jettison principle whatever else you do will not work.

"The principle of being there = chance at loot is a lot better than trying to control the outcome" seems completely unjustified and, frankly, ludicrous.

yet almost everyone is fine with it, even if the person next to them does no dps or healing.

[Sarevokcz]

With bosses like Ji'kun (well most bosses really) it's going to take a few weeks before people even understand the basics of what they need to be doing. I've cleared both halves of Throne of thunder LFR this week on 3 characters and no group wiped more than once on any boss.

Admittedly I had to do the eggs myself on Ji'kun all 3 times with the help of 1 or 2 others who were willing to learn how to do it.

in few weeks, people who will know what to do wont have to join lfr for drops anymore and you will be stuck with casuals, who farmed valor and conquest gear just to get to the ilevel, who probably are gonna have even less idea what to do on such bosses.