ROTHC NDA lifted, posting review (spoiler alert)

[Pizza the Hutt]

The NDA for the closed beta was lifted a week ago. Here is a review I read by a closed beta player (who will remain anonymous for his/her protection - and no it is not me)

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So if I've done my math right, I am now free from my nondisclosure agreement and can tell you all that I played SWTOR's 2.0 content as part of a closed beta group. This post is a bit of a review and an overview; I'll be happy to answer any questions as best I can in the comments.

The idea of reviewing Rise of the Hutt Cartel is a bit funny, since everyone who wants to keep playing SWTOR will eventually have to buy it. But still it's nice to know what's coming, and what to look forward to. I have a number of small points to make, so the discussion will be structured around them.

Is this really an expansion? No, it's not. Calling this version 2.0 of SWTOR and describing it as an expansion is setting people up for a serious and unnecessary disappointment. This patch contains an amount of content that wouldn't be surprising to see in a free content patch for GW2 or Rift, and is basically comparable to one of the larger content updates for the Secret World. Of course, the price is in line with what TSW charges for similar amounts of material, so it's not a scam or anything. But the terminology is probably going to create unneeded negativity among some players. Save yourself some grief --- know going in that it's not that much content.

So what is actually included? I'll offer a quick list with some discussion of each point below. You get: Makeb's planet story, a bunch of dailies, binocular quests, probe droid quests, flashpoints, operations, and changes to gameplay.

Makeb's Planet Story. The new planet, Makeb, has a dynamic and well-written story line that in my opinion compares favorably with even the best story content from SWTOR 1.0. On both sides, you have a mission to achieve on the planet, and the game is set up in such a way that it feels as if you're changing the planet at least a bit as you move along --- a difficult trick to pull off in an MMO. In contrast with some previous planet quests, most of the truly memorable moments for me on Makeb came from gameplay rather than from cut scenes. This is a good thing.

While the planet story is just outstanding and well worth playing through, it is different from the SWTOR norm in a variety of ways. First of all, it is substantially streamlined. There are simply far fewer side quests than on previous planets, and many of those are handled through terminals rather than NPC quest givers. This makes Makeb feel emptier of people than earlier planets, in much the same way that Storm Legion zones in Rift feel much less inhabited than Rift's 1.0 zones. On the other hand, it also makes it far more feasible to play the story straight through, which improves the storytelling and energy of the main plot.

This has an unfortunate side effect, however: as tuned for the beta there just wasn't nearly enough content in the Makeb story to get from level 50 up to the new cap at 55. Most players in the beta earned between 2 and 3 levels while playing through the Makeb content --- including planetary stories, side quests, and heroics. This leaves a substantial amount of leveling to accomplish in other ways, obviously. More about that below. It is possible that XP gains will be retuned for the actual launch of RotHC, although I'd be surprised if this issue were altogether resolved. Not counting endgame dailies, Makeb has something like 8-12 hours of content for you to play. If leveling is retuned in such a way that you can level 5 times in 10 or so hours, then that will feel like lightning pace compared with the last several levels of 1.0; indeed, it would be such a shock that I doubt Bioware will do it.

This means that players will face the opposite dilemma in RotHC leveling as compared with 1.0 leveling. In 1.0, if you did all the content you simply couldn't help outleveling it; there was more to do than one toon could accomplish. In RotHC you will probably do everything and still need to find extra XP. When 2.0 launches you will (if things are like the beta) find new cookie crumb quests taking you back through the 50 endgame dailies. I advise doing them, even if you've done them hundreds of times at this point. You need two things from them that are in short supply on Makeb: XP and credits. On that last point, in the beta 2.0 was an incredible credit suck. Ship travel costs are substantially increased compared with 1.0, and repair costs on 1.0 endgame gear are obviously much higher than repair costs on the earlier iteration of leveling gear. So lots of credit sinks. On the other hand, Makeb provided very little income during the beta. Many missions rewarded no credits at all, including the endgame dailies. Mobs dropped a lot less than on Ilum, as well --- both in loot and in credits. So you are likely to end Makeb substantially poorer than you start it, and it looks as if players may be running the old level 50 endgame dailies for cash even after getting into the new endgame raiding tier.

In terms of gameplay, Makeb is varied and fun; I'll leave you to discover most of it for yourself soon. However some design points are worth mentioning in advance. In terms of mob abilities and distribution, Makeb feels a lot more like Section X than other open world, non-heroic areas from 1.0. By this I mean that mobs are dense on the ground and there are groups with multiple silvers or a silver and a gold. Furthermore, many of the mobs have pulls, stuns, and knockbacks. At least until you get used to the new content, I'd advise that you: (1) always fight with your back against a wall, (2) never try to ride your speeder through groups and outrace them, and (3) fight rather than skip trash unless you have stealth.

The mobs are also tuned around the idea that you will be geared in Campaign-tier or so equipment. I played Makeb once in mostly Tionese and once in Campaign; let's just say that the Tionese run was rocky. It will be pretty easy to get Campaign-tier gear after 2.0 hits: bosses in 50 HM FPs will drop Black Hole gear, and HM EV and KP will drop Hazmat, not to mention that the old level 50 dailies will award commendations that can be traded for Campaign. I urge you to take advantage of these opportunities to gear up. This content expects you to be geared, and since mobs don't drop terribly much gear that is better than Tionese even you are expected to get the gear from endgame activities.

So that's Makeb. Good story, kinda short, expensive in credits, you need gear, be careful with mobs.

Dailies. Makeb offers a fresh batch of daily quests, which are mostly well-designed and are quite varied in terms of gameplay and objectives. They will help a bit in terms of gear for endgame, although there are only a few slots you can fill through them and that tier is roughly on par with Dread Guard --- and therefore isn't a huge statistical change from Campaign. If you are in Campaign gear and are with a good group, the new level 55 HM FPs are pretty manageable even without upgrades from the dailies. On the other hand, you will probably have to run these a couple of times to finish leveling up to 55.

Binocular Quests. Bioware has added a couple of new aspects of play, which are optional in the sense that you don't need them to get through Makeb but on the other hand help provide otherwise very scarce XP. The first of these involves getting some high-tech binoculars and going all over the galaxy to look at special objects with them. Really. It's a whole exploration questline about finding Easter eggs, and it culminates in a long and fun H4 mission. This won't have massive replay value or anything, but it's entertaining and helps bulk out the content, not to mention giving you a reason to revisit older planets.

Seeker Droid Quests. In parallel with the binoculars is the line of content that I want to murder, which involves using probe and seeker droids to find various kinds of buried stuff. You click a button, get a big circle that turns green or red, then if it's green, you click another button and a smaller droid fishes for you. That small droid may fail altogether, it may pull up vendor trash, or once in a while it may pull up gear. And when you are just about ready to egg the houses of every single person in Austin, TX, for creating this design it will pull up a quest object.

Basically, this is like a large new line of content like finding HK parts, except for a few differences. First, you get no hot-cold information. Either you are in the right area or the droid fails. Second, it costs money: the droids that make the big circles are consumables. Third, if you suffer through the content long enough, you eventually unlock a rather good H4 quest.

Some people will love this, but for a lot of players this is content that just won't be enjoyable.

Flashpoints. The new endgame flashpoints are hard modes of Athiss, Cademimu, Hammer Station, and Mandalorian Raiders. These are mostly pretty familiar, although the mobs obviously hit much harder than in the old versions. I'd note that Athiss, Cademimu, and Mandalorian Raiders are quite long flashpoints. While the community will obviously be hard at work finding skips and optimal paths, it seems likely that daily HM FP runs will take substantially more time for a while. When that is combined with the fact that long-time players have probably already run each of these instances several times, I worry that this will be a pretty heavy element of grind. It's too bad that there couldn't be one or two new FPs in the mix.

Operations. You know this story already, since these were on the public beta run through the PTS. There is one new operation, Scum and Villainy. It's fun, has some interesting mechanics, not so much trash, and basically plays out as substantially less complex and occasionally unfair in comparison with some notorious bosses in EC and later parts of TFB. The other op at endgame is TFB. There's a new difficulty mode, woo-hoo, but otherwise it's just retuned to level 55. This is where gear rewards first become palpably better than the Campaign tier from the 1.0 endgame.

Changes to Gameplay. Adjustments to class trees and mechanics are mostly quite minor. Classes do not get a new tier on their tree, so the new spec points from levels 51-55 allow you to broaden out across trees rather than intensify specialization in one. Each class gets one or two new abilities at level 52 or so. Some of these are nice; operatives for example get a quick roll that allows them to become more mobile in combat. However, you pretty much are not going to get anything like a new signature move; these are utility abilities for specific purposes, not new "ultimates" of any sort. Overall, these changes are probably of about the same magnitude as the class adjustments that happened in patch 1.2.

No Class Story. Actually that's not quite right. There are a few scenes that connect in basically cosmetic ways with your class story from 1.0. However, those scenes exist essentially to bring that story to a close. For example, my operative had chosen to go rogue and run independent of command structures in either the Empire or the Republic. Well, to go to Makeb, she had to accept that she was once again working for the Empire; all done. Similar small touches exist for the other classes.

On the whole, it is easy to see places where Bioware is trying to reverse course from 1.0 in ways that save money and increase their development flexibility. 10 story lines per planet (8 class stories and 2 faction stories) probably can't be done on the kind of cash flow SWTOR actually turns out to produce --- if it had been the new WoW as some expected before release things would obviously be different. So instead we get two stories, and heavy use of terminals to minimize expensive voice acting and alleviate what turned out to be the distraction of cut scenes for each kill-ten-rats. Likewise we see extensive reuse of existing content: retuned FPs and one retuned OP, as well as quests that send you back to old planets to explore small new areas.

Frankly I think some of these changes bode well for the future of the game: Bioware just has to be able to produce content more cheaply and quickly than it did for 1.0 if SWTOR is to thrive. Yet on the other hand the fact that it took at least a year of active development to produce a packet of content that is similar in scope to what Funcom adds to TSW every couple of months is disheartening.

Overall, RotHC is good value for money. If you like SWTOR you will almost certainly enjoy Makeb, and if you like SWTOR raids, Scum and Villainy is going to be good content for you. Just don't go in expecting months of new gameplay; you can get through the new material in a long weekend.

[ariakul]

I'm not buying it.

Thanks for posting that review also!

[davispunx]

Thanks for the review. It seems weird that the new content wont take you all the way to level 55. Its also strange that they expect you to be in campaign gear or higher to be able to reasonably complete the new content. Not that I advise "catering to casuals" but I would argue thats what almost (if not most people playing a f2p game are). I mostly play solo and have full columi on my main with a few Campaign pieces and ive been playing since launch. I just do other stuff rather than farm FPs and dailies. It seems like a step backwards to making the content available and friendly to most people.

Can you shed some light on crafting? Is slicing still going to be the money maker?

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm not buying it.

Thanks for posting that review also!

I don't see a reason to buy it either. It would be rewarding bad behavior.

[Forsedar]

Bioware stated that it would take ~9 hours to hit max level. So yes, Makeb content will give us the ability to hit 55.

Adjustments to class trees and mechanics are mostly quite minor. Classes do not get a new tier on their tree, so the new spec points from levels 51-55 allow you to broaden out across trees rather than intensify specialization in one.

Talent trees have an added tier to them, just not another "spec into this and get a new cool ability!" Most talents have been redesigned ontop of that.


My personal belief is that RotHC isn't a content patch meant to last us another year. I'll gladly pay $10 for this.

[Kelimbror]

So many negatives in this review I don't see how they could come to the conclusion that it is worth the money at all. Many things confirmed our intial speculation and no, this is definitely not an expansion. Sure everything could be rebalanced before launch, but I just don't expect that.

I'm not sure I even thought these things were this bad, but several factors point towards trying to remove credits from players and driving them to the cartel market for a myriad of things...especially to continue making money. Surprise, surprise.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 12:47 PM ----------

Bioware stated that it would take ~9 hours to hit max level. So yes, Makeb content will give us the ability to hit 55

They also said it would take 5 months to hit 50. It seems they are drastically underestimating the leveling now. While I don't believe one person as the complete truth, I don't know why they would say that Makeb is done in a short time and only gets you to 53 if it wasn't true.

[Forsedar]

They also said it would take 5 months to hit 50. It seems they are drastically underestimating the leveling now. While I don't believe one person as the complete truth, I don't know why they would say that Makeb is done in a short time and only gets you to 53 if it wasn't true.

I mean I don't think saying its going to take 7-9 hours to level is 'underestimating people'. If they said "a month" like some people are claiming Bioware is saying, then yes, that would be a gross underestimation. We all know Bioware screwed up at launch, so bringing it up continuously, while understandable, no longer has the basis that it did.

Also, this thread was the first I've heard of finishing every quest and not reaching 55.

[Kelimbror]

I mean I don't think saying its going to take 7-9 hours to level is 'underestimating people'. If they said "a month" like some people are claiming Bioware is saying, then yes, that would be a gross underestimation. We all know Bioware screwed up at launch, so bringing it up continuously, while understandable, no longer has the basis that it did.

Oh ok, didn't know people were saying that about a 'month'. I'm just concerned that if playing through all the quest content doesn't level you...that seems like a really odd way to go about things. Can't really see any reason for that if it is true.

Seems like you would then have to grind various other activities in order to reach max level, which is not good design.

[Deleted]

So the leveling takes 9 hours, very few class changes and the new FP's are rehashed version of 1.0 instances? and they have the balls to call this an expansion lol.

Put it out of it's misery everything about the game has been a complete farce.

[Forsedar]

I agree. I would be pretty upset if questing only took me about halfway. From those that I've talked to, I haven't heard any issues about that. I guess we'll find out soon.

[Kelimbror]

So the leveling takes 9 hours, very few class changes and the new FP's are rehashed version of 1.0 instances? and they have the balls to call this an expansion lol.

They also pressured people into preordering it when it was first announced and we had literally zero information about it. Like, frantically tried to get everyone and their brother to prepurchase but didn't answer a single question people wanted answered. The sad part is that the remaining people probably caved in and bought it anyways.

I mean, some people are going to enjoy this game no matter how many bad decisions the company makes, no matter how many times they screw their customer over, no matter what. Can't really fault someone for wanting that, I just don't understand it personally. I wish could love a game that much, just because it seems like they are having more fun than I've ever had with something. Idk though.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 01:09 PM ----------

I agree. I would be pretty upset if questing only took me about halfway. From those that I've talked to, I haven't heard any issues about that. I guess we'll find out soon.

Yeah like I said, while I won't just believe one source and call it definite, I don't know why someone would say it if it wasn't true. I expect the XP levels would be tuned so you could hit max from questing.

[Landin55]

So many negatives in this review I don't see how they could come to the conclusion that it is worth the money at all. Many things confirmed our intial speculation and no, this is definitely not an expansion. Sure everything could be rebalanced before launch, but I just don't expect that.

I'm not sure I even thought these things were this bad, but several factors point towards trying to remove credits from players and driving them to the cartel market for a myriad of things...especially to continue making money. Surprise, surprise.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 12:47 PM ----------


They also said it would take 5 months to hit 50. It seems they are drastically underestimating the leveling now. While I don't believe one person as the complete truth, I don't know why they would say that Makeb is done in a short time and only gets you to 53 if it wasn't true.

Overall, RotHC is good value for money. If you like SWTOR you will almost certainly enjoy Makeb, and if you like SWTOR raids, Scum and Villainy is going to be good content for you. Just don't go in expecting months of new gameplay; you can get through the new material in a long weekend.

Uhhhh? No? This is a expansion for all ready SWTOR fans if you didn't know that then you weren't following it very closely.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 05:12 PM ----------

They also pressured people into preordering it when it was first announced and we had literally zero information about it. Like, frantically tried to get everyone and their brother to prepurchase but didn't answer a single question people wanted answered. The sad part is that the remaining people probably caved in and bought it anyways.

I mean, some people are going to enjoy this game no matter how many bad decisions the company makes, no matter how many times they screw their customer over, no matter what. Can't really fault someone for wanting that, I just don't understand it personally. I wish could love a game that much, just because it seems like they are having more fun than I've ever had with something. Idk though.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 01:09 PM ----------


Yeah like I said, while I won't just believe one source and call it definite, I don't know why someone would say it if it wasn't true. I expect the XP levels would be tuned so you could hit max from questing.

They put a gun to you or your family and said buy it!?!?! Or you mean they advertised their own game and gave a special deal to those already subscribed....... stop being ridiculous.

[RoninaThorstone]

I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

Why add 5 levels? Why put them behind a pay wall?
It's not a good idea to divide your player base. Ever. You make it so less people hit level 55.
Why wouldn't they sell access to the raids for 10/20 dollars and let f2pers level to 55? That way they would have more f2p people sitting at 55 going "hmm. I guess I might raid. I'll pay a little bit for the raid" instead of them thinking "So... I have to pay 20 dollars to do some quests and dailies... And there's no way to get it on the CM. And then I have to buy raid passes for the new raid as well?"

Just... Ugh.

UGH. It's icon on my toolbar is trolling me. "You wanted this to turn out well huehuehue"

[Deleted]

How can they even charge subscribers for this though? im not trying to be a hater on the game or anything but seriously how the hell can they charge subscribers for 9 hours of leveling content, a new raid instance and 4 rehashed FP's. It's a patch but they are trying to milk every penny possible and are dressing it up as a expansion, it's really quite embarrassing I feel for the people who actually hand over their sub fee's to play this game they are being taken for a ride.

[Kelimbror]

Uhhhh? No? This is a expansion for all ready SWTOR fans if you didn't know that then you weren't following it very closely.

1) Who are you?
2) Uhh, no? - to what? I don't think I asked a question.
3) The review is largely negative, expressing entirely why this is NOT an EXPANSION , etc, etc.
4) I'm really not sure what you are trying to get at. We're all fans, even those of us incredibly unhappy with the game an not playing anymore. It's not the game's fault that it's managed poorly.

They put a gun to you or your family and said buy it!?!?! Or you mean they advertised their own game and gave a special deal to those already subscribed....... stop being ridiculous.

Take your own advice, thank you.

[Forsedar]

So the leveling takes 9 hours, very few class changes and the new FP's are rehashed version of 1.0 instances? and they have the balls to call this an expansion lol.

When has an MMO released everything its 'expansion' had to offer right off the bat? It has enough starting content to last until they get out more, which they are inevitably currently working on.

Paying for an expansion generally means you pay for the content it comes with upfront as well as any released content up until the next expansion.

[RoninaThorstone]

How can they even charge subscribers for this though? im not trying to be a hater on the game or anything but seriously how the hell can they charge subscribers for 9 hours of leveling content, a new raid instance and 4 rehashed FP's. It's a patch but they are trying to milk every penny possible and are dressing it up as a expansion, it's really quite embarrassing I feel for the people who actually hand over their sub fee's to play this game they are being taken for a ride.

The 15 dollars a month isn't for content.
It's to make the pop ups that say "hey. You are a bad person for not subscribing" go away

[Kelimbror]

How can they even charge subscribers for this though? im not trying to be a hater on the game or anything but seriously how the hell can they charge subscribers for 9 hours of leveling content, a new raid instance and 4 rehashed FP's. It's a patch but they are trying to milk every penny possible and are dressing it up as a expansion, it's really quite embarrassing I feel for the people who actually hand over their sub fee's to play this game they are being taken for a ride.

Yes, it's a concern we've mentioned a great deal. subscribers are getting a very raw deal with this game at the moment that reached it's pinnacle with the Cartel Market faction earned via spending cash. This game goes the complete opposite route of rewarding subscribers and instead punishes everyone else. It's very strange and I hate that it is making them so much money.

Subscribers of this game, who have supported them through a lot, deserve a lot more than they are getting right now. SWTOR could deliver that, because it has a foundation solid enough to do so, but the developers would have to actually deliver that.

[Landin55]

1) Who are you?
2) Uhh, no? - to what? I don't think I asked a question.
3) The review is largely negative, expressing entirely why this is NOT an EXPANSION , etc, etc.

Take your own advice, thank you.

The review is not even close to "largly negative" you took this review and twisted it with your own opinion to make it seem like guy said never buy this its trash. But when he in fact praised it for SWTOR fans already. So once again, no you are wrong, this review is not "largely negative".

[WarpedAcorn]

This is a well written review, and appears to focus more on facts than emotions. That being said, I was already doubting I would invest the money in RotHC and this review help confirm it. I've had a lot of fun in SWTOR, more fun than most. I'll keep my eyes on this and see if the captains can steer the ship in a positive direction.