10m Amount of loot issue.

[Brakthir]

25man raids will always have an advantage over 10man raids because virtually no one wants to actually run 25-man, but the handful that do whine and cry that no one else wants to run it, so blizzard is forced to give them several advantages in gear over 10-man just so there will be enough 25man raiders to do anything. If it came down to playing how you wanted to play, 25-man raids would die out as they should really, since so few people are actually interested in doing them and WOULDNT do them without all the extra bonuses. It's pretty dumb.

Ugh. So wrong. Reported.

[Deleted]

The only thing I can understand being frustrating from a 10 man P.O.V are the weapons, but even then 25 man is subject to horrible RNG on weapons (3 Tsulong swords says hi).

[DakonBlackblade]

i dont know why ppl loose focus so damm much on these threads about 10 man loot beeing horrible.

Theres no one saying 25 man loot should be brought to par with 10s (or vice-versa), theres no one saying more itens should drop on 10 man and nothing should be done to 25s drops to compensate this, what we are saying tough is that 10 man loot system is terrible, atrocious, ridiculous and not fun. It needs to change baddly cause 10 mans guilds are subject to the will of mother randomness more tham anything els eon this game and sometimes she just doesnt like your guild at all.

You can go an entire patch and not see a specific iten you want even drop on a 10 man and its not even unlikelly, the odds are actually 7.4% considering a loot table of 20 itens and that the tier will last for 6 months that you wont see any specific iten dropping at least once, its a super hughe chance considering the amount of raids that run 10 mans, this means there will be a massive chunk of 10 man players wholl never even see theyre weapon dropping for instance.

10 man loot is broken and needs help, 25 man loot has nothign to do with this discussion so dont come here and say "hey want to have more itens dropping go run 25s" cause that isnt helpping one bit and is only fuelling the 10 x 25 pointless discussions further.

[HardCoder]

I've been a GM and raid leader for over 5 years, its definitely way harder. If not 3x then at least 2x harder.

I find myself agreeing with the people who say "it's way harder for the GM/raid leader to put together a 25 but not a bit harder and probably easier for everyone else."

So, in my way of thinking, it would be fair to award extra loot or whatever to a couple of people organizing the raid, but for everyone else, that shouldn't happen.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:05 AM ----------

You can go an entire patch and not see a specific iten you want even drop on a 10 man and its not even unlikelly, the odds are actually 7.4% considering a loot table of 20 itens and that the tier will last for 6 months that you wont see any specific iten dropping at least once, its a super hughe chance considering the amount of raids that run 10 mans, this means there will be a massive chunk of 10 man players wholl never even see theyre weapon dropping for instance.

On the other hand, I don't have any problem with large loot tables (I like them!) and I don't have any problem with people being statistically unlikely to fill out their BiS over 3-4 months of raiding.

The fact that weapons are hard to come by in this expansion is a separate problem. I don't really like that, but I don't think that farming a boss for a weapon is compelling gameplay either. There should be more non-BiS weapons available.

[Akraen]

It's only bad because of the pressure to gear up before the next tier.

40 people dealt with 2 items dropping off a boss each week. It was far worse then. And you didn't get tokens. But you also had ages to gear up and the raids themselves were more rewarding and epic feeling.

[Deleted]

And how does Offspecc gear contribute to the raid? Yes, not at all, you got it!

25m: not much. 10m: much more. Especially if you consider that sometimes having one spec as a tank is simply far less viable than having another spec. I have seen this myself on Gara'jal HC 10m with DK tank in blues, and given I played shadow 10m in 5.0 I can tell you all about being not viable in one raid being the worst of all DD in HoF in 5 out of 6 fights. So, I had to heal. Don't like this part of 10m? Consider going 25m. It is a vital part of 10m raiding and much less vital in 25m. Or, you have a larger roster where you swap more due to loot concerns. Also a valid way to cope with it.

[Venant]

How about they just make it so that only gear that is usable by people in the raid actually drops in 10 man. Its ridiculous to have spirit mail gear drop when there are no shaman or spirit leather gear when there are no druids or monks. The only downside to this is that people might try to abuse this system by stacking the raid, however I doubt this would be a real problem since people wont want to have to roll against 5 other of their class in a 10 man.

[DakonBlackblade]

I find myself agreeing with the people who say "it's way harder for the GM/raid leader to put together a 25 but not a bit harder and probably easier for everyone else."

So, in my way of thinking, it would be fair to award extra loot or whatever to a couple of people organizing the raid, but for everyone else, that shouldn't happen.

---------- Post added 2013-04-02 at 10:05 AM ----------


On the other hand, I don't have any problem with large loot tables (I like them!) and I don't have any problem with people being statistically unlikely to fill out their BiS over 3-4 months of raiding.

The fact that weapons are hard to come by in this expansion is a separate problem. I don't really like that, but I don't think that farming a boss for a weapon is compelling gameplay either. There should be more non-BiS weapons available.

I agree Im not complaning its hard ot get BIS gear thats the odd of any 1 iten never dropping, if you consider assassination rogues who only have 2 daggers on the bosses table, the odds that any 1 dagger never drop is "only" 0.55%, that is low but now consider there are i dont know maybe 5 thousand or more 10 man raid teans out there and youll see 0.54% is actualy too damm much. If theyre gona bloat loot table bloat it with actualy important stuf, we dont need like 3 off tier leg pieces on top of the tier cause almost everyone will use the tier anyway, and theres a valor point leg as well, maybe we could have 1 off tier leg and 2 other weapons...

And amongst all these itens they managed to only have 1 boot per spec, realy 1, each boss drops 18+ itens and each spec only gets 1 boot common blizz... I dont know whats the solution but 10 mans cant be kept at the "clutches" of randomness as much as they are, some level of random is fun, too much is frustrating.

[Tinykong]

Really the problem is with loot tables, not numbers.

I'm still convinced loot isn't purely random, because we keep sharding the same items over and over again. It happens every tier. Blizzard needs to stop having loot tables with some items being one percent chance, and other items being higher/lower.

Trash drops kind of suck, too. IMO, they should be filler for items that exist elsewhere in the raid, not BiS items (for normal raiders, obviously.)

[Deleted]

maybe, but server firsts achievements are only 10 man or 25man. they don't have separate achievements (would be easy for the 25man to steal the 10man achievement anyways)

Yes, and like you say it wouldn't be easy to seperate. 25m guild could take their best 10 players and snatch the 10m one too, but 10m guild cannot do same for 25m achievement.

Either way I don't take these achievements serious. I've played on low pop realm, so I know they're a pile of meanigless crap. Since people care so much about achievement points and achievements they should be removed.

[dkdk]

In my 10 man raid, for whatever reason we have always had dps plate drop more than anything else. After raiding the whole of T14, our holy pally had a better ret offspec than my monks main dps spec (I ran tank until we picked up another tank so I went dps). I was competing with a rogue and we had no main spec plate dps, so at the end of the tier I main swapped back to my dk. Str dps gear dropped all over the place and I geared up super fast in the 3 weeks before ToT dropped, and I'm now the most geared in our raid.

Sometimes you just have to swap people around to get the most out of your raid. We had a hole in our raid comp and were stacking 2 agi leather wearers, so I swapped out and it made a huge difference. In the first 4 weeks we went 3/12 6/12 8/12 11/12, and have only DE'd 3 things with the raid comp of;

holy pally
resto shaman
disc priest
prot pally
prot warrior
dps dk
boomkin
mage
rogue
hunter
warlock

We are 3/3/4 for tier and the only bad overlap is lock mage priest, but it doesn't seem to cause that much of an issue for us.

[spekkio7]

10 man loot is ridiculous on its own terms. tired of it being compared to 25-man. we're 3/12h and already getting pieces we hardly need. normal loot is a lot of repeats nobody needs and were just getting garbage loot in general. only getting 1 extra piece of loot on tier bosses beside actual tier piece is nonsense. can go forever without seeing something drop. if I didn't enjoy raiding for the challenge 10-man loot would probably make me quit raiding. DEing and taking pieces we won't use first week in new raid is fun...

[kosechi]

are 10 mans still complaining about loot?

yes, lets reward you more for doing less work, that sounds fair.

encounter balance aside, 25 mans work harder and have more logistical legwork to do then 10 mans do, shouldn't they be rewarded for that?

the loot ratio between 10 and 25 man is only one item more.

25s are not immune to crappy loot rng, if anything it feels even worse in a 25 man when you get a string of bad luck because you have that many more chances at it and you still can't get it.

[Raone]

are 10 mans still complaining about loot?

yes, lets reward you more for doing less work, that sounds fair.

encounter balance aside, 25 mans work harder and have more logistical legwork to do then 10 mans do, shouldn't they be rewarded for that?

the loot ratio between 10 and 25 man is only one item more.

25s are not immune to crappy loot rng, if anything it feels even worse in a 25 man when you get a string of bad luck because you have that many more chances at it and you still can't get it.

are 25ms still complaining about 10ms? :P see what i did there?

10ms aren't wanting more/better gear then 25ms so please don't make it that. All were saying the current system in 10 is terrible and the incredibly large loot table each boss has makes it even worse. I remember back in Dragonsoul one of the blue's even admitted there was something wrong with the current system and had a change coming but then it disappeared forever. Trust me 25's have it good when it comes to loot, you have very little loot waste. We killed Lei Shen yesterday for the first time and it was an awesome fight and we were thrilled to finally beat him ... till we DEed both items.

[theturn]

Recruiting wasnt a problem we had a 32 man roster. You just need to present your guild and make it attractive. Past achievements helped. (This was during tbc and we had kael and vashj down earlier then most). Also the server was alive. Its not hard to recruit if you make it so people come to you wanting in, not you searching every nook an cranny for them.

And the other 7 were perfectly happy to not raid?

25 mans are a nightmare logistically. Not only from a pre raid stand point but also while in raid.

[Vapo]

jinrokh hc -0/2 DE
horridon hc -1/2 DE
council hc -1/1 DE
tortos hc -2/2 DE
megaera -1/2 DE
jikun hc -1/1 DE
durumu -1/2 DE
primordius -1/2 DE
animus -1/1 DE
iron qon -1/1 DE
twins -0/1 DE
lei shen -0/2 DE

ending up with 52.6% DE rate. cool beans.

[Deleted]

So perhaps 10man should have a smaller loot table but I think that would lead to whining that bis cannot be obtained

[Ruffles]

maybe, but server firsts achievements are only 10 man or 25man. they don't have separate achievements (would be easy for the 25man to steal the 10man achievement anyways)

They can make it so you obtain only 1 realm first per tier adding 10 player or 25 player at the end of the achievement.For example if you get Realm First! Heroic: Lei Shen (25 Player) the 10 man version shouldn't be obtainable by the same guild.
Same goes for the other achievements.
They can split them but why they don't do that it's another discussion.

[lightofdawn]

not that i really care, but i think if 10 man had 2 pieces of loot drop then 25 should have 5. so it'd be 1 for every 5 players putting in effort

also, yeah obviously it takes more effort to put 25 ppl together, but there's also much more room for error in 25 mans compared to 10 mans

with my 2 cents on the table, i'll take my leave

[clevin]

The issue isn't really what 25s get. It's that 10 loot has a much higher chance of being useless to the raid. I'd leave 25s alone - I don't care that they have a higher chance at TF pieces or that they have a slightly higher per person drop rate. What I care about is the high DE rate in 10s. Both hunters in my raid who need the Jinrokh legs have them. We have no enhance shammy so if they drop again they're a shard. That's half of his loot useless already in that case.