1. #3881
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready.
    They aren't "not launching" with raids, they're not doing raids at all. The game is being designed without the need of raids.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

  2. #3882
    I also like the PoEx map-system. It adds variety, aims for the grind, AND difficulty - a very good mix, imo! Of course, nobody is suggesting to copy the concept over to other games. But it's a great example of the possibilities of good design: variable, complex, and selective - don't like it, trade it to someone who does! "To each his own" is a great concept that I feel is still criminally underused. Just take WoW - how many years did it take for a 2nd difficulty mode? How many years for a 3rd? Is it really so hard to understand that players can't be divided into binary "casuals" and "hardcores" categories? I sure hope that TEOS keeps that in mind, to the most diverse degrees reasonably possible.

  3. #3883
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbycat View Post
    Also, Adventure Zones scheduled for release after launch, will have some type of large group instanced raid-like encounters. However, expect them to be a different experience than WoW's raids.
    Not sure if you're trolling Chickat, or if you're just a really obnoxious person.

  4. #3884
    But that's the thing, really; there seems to be a lot of conflicting information out there, from "no raiding at all" to "just some world bosses" to "raiding-like zones and dungeons". A bit confusing to say the least...

  5. #3885
    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    Of course the raiding is the endgame. There are no people who doesn’t raid or PvP, those has already found themselves Asian grindfests. To make a Western game without a focus is a stupid move.
    Wrong. Totally wrong. I know a guild of players who dont raid and dont pvp. The just do dailys and dungeons and maybe lfr but i dont consider LFR true raiding as there is no challenge and just free loot, also no organization which raiding is supposed to require. They play the basic game most the time. There are players who just play, they are called casual players.

  6. #3886
    Deleted
    Looks awsome, i'll keep a eye on it and see how it goes. Love the cinematic trailers too <3

  7. #3887
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Wrong. Totally wrong. I know a guild of players who dont raid and dont pvp. The just do dailys and dungeons and maybe lfr but i dont consider LFR true raiding as there is no challenge and just free loot, also no organization which raiding is supposed to require. They play the basic game most the time. There are players who just play, they are called casual players.
    No, you are totally wrong. Casual players do not stay long any way, they are flakey. There needs to be end game and raiding makes sense that it would be a big part of end game. People love to join a group of like minded people and work as a team.

    What is end game then for those that want pve, which would be many. 5 mans? What is going to fill that void? I do not want a MMO to feel like a single player game, may as well stick with Skyrim then. Does anyone know what end game will be about truly? I am looking forward to this game a lot but will not even consider buying if end game ends up being a boring drag.

  8. #3888
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Does anyone know what end game will be about truly?
    No. They have been very vague. They've said there will be no WoW-like raiding so take that as you will. For more info we just wait.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

  9. #3889
    What it all comes down to is a carrot on a stick... MMO's need carrots or they are destined to fail in my opinion. No carrot at all in GW2 max level, you are just expected to enjoy the world at your whim. Without a carrot to keep you invested in your character I may as well be playing Skyrim... or another single player RPG, like SWTOR (yes SWTOR). The carrot doesn't HAVE to be raiding... but WoW's carrot (Gear and the subsequent increase in power/aesthetics it gives you) has held players for half a decade... Perhaps someone can come up with an equally potent carrot?

    If the end game of TEOS ends up being mostly "walk around do some daily quests, engage in some pvp or randomized world events at my leisure, lore whoring and achievement grinding" (ALA GW2), I will be quite a sad panda indeed.

  10. #3890
    Perhaps some of us realized that we aren't rabbits, which is why we stopped eating WoW's carrot. WoW is there for WoW gameplay. Why do you people want to force it on every new game you encounter?

    And yes, I perfectly understand the metaphor.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

  11. #3891
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    No, you are totally wrong. Casual players do not stay long any way, they are flakey. There needs to be end game and raiding makes sense that it would be a big part of end game. People love to join a group of like minded people and work as a team.

    What is end game then for those that want pve, which would be many. 5 mans? What is going to fill that void? I do not want a MMO to feel like a single player game, may as well stick with Skyrim then. Does anyone know what end game will be about truly? I am looking forward to this game a lot but will not even consider buying if end game ends up being a boring drag.
    Wrong again. Casual players stay subbed how do i know because that guild did NO RAIDING from 4.0-5.0, Zero raiding. Did ppl Pvp on an individual basis yea, was there any organized partys sure, but i know for a fact that the majority of 4.3 they spent using LFR gear to do firelands. Other than that never stepped into Normal DS, would rather run 10 man naxx than any other raid. Mostly did dungeons or did their dailies and logged off. Every day for months. They did not need your "endgame" to keep playing. They were perfectly fine with doing old content, and doing their dailies and dungeon runs. Casual doesnt mean unsub resub unsub resub. It means you play ocasionally meaning you dont have time for organized grouping and your play sessions are short and the things you do in those play sessions are limited because of the time you spend playing. You can play 2 hrs a week every month, but in those 2 hours you clearly cant raid, doesnt mean your gonna unsub.

    Someone who doesnt play everyday, and only plays for a few hours when they do play has alot more time to enjoy the game than someone who plays 5 hours everyday who rushes through everything. A person who rushes through content is more likely to quit than someone who plays it slowly because they are busy elsewhere in life.

  12. #3892
    I never said TEOS needs wow's carrot. I said I believe it needs a carrot of its own ie a system that invests the player in progressing their character, setting the hook deep.

  13. #3893
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    Not sure if you're trolling Chickat, or if you're just a really obnoxious person.
    Clearly i said "So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready. I obviously meant that the game would fail without it launching with an endgame. A pvp endgame wont do either. In this day and age the game needs both to really be a success.
    Last edited by Chickat; 2013-04-04 at 04:33 PM.

  14. #3894
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Clearly i said "So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready. I obviously meant that the game would fail without it launching with an endgame. A pvp endgame wont do either. In this day and age the game needs both to really be a success.
    Why are raids the only form of endgame in your eyes?

    It's like asking why an eskimo can't imagine a desert I guess.
    Why am I back here, I don't even play these games anymore

    The problem with the internet is parallel to its greatest achievement: it has given the little man an outlet where he can be heard. Most of the time however, the little man is a little man because he is not worth hearing.

  15. #3895
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Why are raids the only form of endgame in your eyes?

    It's like asking why an eskimo can't imagine a desert I guess.
    Raids are by no means the only form of endgame, however I think no raids is a poor choice because there are many people like me that love every aspect of raiding and not much of the other stuff. Raiding is not synonymous with WoW. A game that intentionally chooses not to offer raids is intentionally choosing to lower its potential player base, not a wise decision.

  16. #3896
    I swear I've seen this argument not so long ago, feels like deja vu.

  17. #3897
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Perhaps some of us realized that we aren't rabbits, which is why we stopped eating WoW's carrot. WoW is there for WoW gameplay. Why do you people want to force it on every new game you encounter?

    And yes, I perfectly understand the metaphor.
    Acting on an incentive isn't a WoW-invention, it's how people have always worked. Carrot-on-a-stick design isn't the problem, nor the point of debate - the nature of the carrot is. In WoW it's loot, whether powerful, pretty, or pet. Games like GW2 have tried to make the gameworld experience the carrot, and it has only been mildly successful. Understandably so, I think; in the end, we are all selfish bastards at heart and so the strongest incentive will always remain whatever caters to that the most. Whether that's amazing stats or amazing looks is another question, but it almost assuredly has to remain PERSONAL. The power of these sorts of incentives has been slowly invading most games and gaming platforms. Look at achievements, for example: they are nothing but imaginary badges designed to tell others how awesome you are. It's just one of the mechanisms to get players more involved with the game. Heck, even games that were traditionally without such a mechanic (like FPS or RTS) are all switching onto a system of persistent progression to keep people playing.

    MMOs are destined to follow such a pattern almost by definition. After all, what good is it if you play with others but can't show them how badass you are? Might as well play single-player then, right? And there are only so many ways you can come up with to reward players with tools to show off their "uniqueness" and, dare I say it, "skill". In fact, at the core there are only two factors that matter: time and ability. Everything in the game is designed around these two, the differences are merely how you use them. But I guarantee you that it's going to be incentive-based, in whatever way. Nobody will sit there and kill 100.000 enemies just because the combat feels cool. It just won't happen, not with players being what and how they are.

    That doesn't mean everything has to be a WoW-copy. WoW itself has copied many of its core concepts from other games. What distinguishes WoW, in my opinion, is the iterative nature of its endgame. It's an endless treadmill, driven by loot. You may like that, or you may not, but ask yourself: what other incentive could there be? Players WANT goals when they play, or they become bored very quickly. An engaging, beautiful game world will keep you occupied for a while, but even the biggest, prettiest sandbox becomes dull and repetitive in almost no time. That works in a single player game; you play it for a few hours, then you've had your fill and move on to the next game. It's a perfectly valid system, but it only works for single player games. As soon as you try to create a long-term, persistent multiplayer world, player boredom becomes your #1 enemy. Understandably so, as a multiplayer world lives off its inhabitants, and if you keep hemorrhaging players because they become bored, then the world will be underpopulated and the experience will suffer for everyone.

    But, again, I'm in no way saying that every MMO needs to be WoW, or have a WoW-like endgame. But they all need something, some incentive, some carrot to dangle in front of people to keep them engaged. It would be nice if we were all devoted players that are in it for the experience alone - but that's just not how the majority of people think and play. It's not going to happen.

    That's not to say there aren't people like that, though, and it's important to keep that in mind. But to be honest, I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be multiple layers within the game, multiple systems with multiple incentives that each cater to different types of players. That has been one of WoW's biggest strengths over the years, the variety offered at endgame. WoW, too, is in my opinion too limited and too simplistic in what it offers, but it still does it better than most other games. There simply must be SOMETHING TO DO, and the only way to get anyone off their fat asses and do it is by dangling a reward in front of them. For raiders, it's powerful gear; for other people, it may be pretty gear, or pets, or achievements, or even something abstract like a high PvP rating. Without the carrot-on-a-stick, an MMO would die.

    But implementation matters, too. Just having the rewards there isn't enough, it has to be done properly. WoW has made many mistakes in that regard in the past; TEOS, I hope, will learn from those. Gear inflation and welfare has to be balanced; incentives have to be matched to the expectations of their target audience; grinds have to be just right, not too quick, not too tedious; and many, many other factors that play an important role. But, yet again, there must be SOMETHING. So far, TEOS has not revealed a compelling reason to treat the game as anything else than Skyrim with PvP. That could be fine as a concept, but it will be an inherent limit to the game's success, population size, and playerbase diversity. I think it could do better. We'll have to wait for more information to see if it will.

  18. #3898
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Acting on an incentive isn't a WoW-invention, it's how people have always worked. Carrot-on-a-stick design isn't the problem, nor the point of debate - the nature of the carrot is. In WoW it's loot, whether powerful, pretty, or pet. Games like GW2 have tried to make the gameworld experience the carrot, and it has only been mildly successful. Understandably so, I think; in the end, we are all selfish bastards at heart and so the strongest incentive will always remain whatever caters to that the most. Whether that's amazing stats or amazing looks is another question, but it almost assuredly has to remain PERSONAL. The power of these sorts of incentives has been slowly invading most games and gaming platforms. Look at achievements, for example: they are nothing but imaginary badges designed to tell others how awesome you are. It's just one of the mechanisms to get players more involved with the game. Heck, even games that were traditionally without such a mechanic (like FPS or RTS) are all switching onto a system of persistent progression to keep people playing.

    MMOs are destined to follow such a pattern almost by definition. After all, what good is it if you play with others but can't show them how badass you are? Might as well play single-player then, right? And there are only so many ways you can come up with to reward players with tools to show off their "uniqueness" and, dare I say it, "skill". In fact, at the core there are only two factors that matter: time and ability. Everything in the game is designed around these two, the differences are merely how you use them. But I guarantee you that it's going to be incentive-based, in whatever way. Nobody will sit there and kill 100.000 enemies just because the combat feels cool. It just won't happen, not with players being what and how they are.

    That doesn't mean everything has to be a WoW-copy. WoW itself has copied many of its core concepts from other games. What distinguishes WoW, in my opinion, is the iterative nature of its endgame. It's an endless treadmill, driven by loot. You may like that, or you may not, but ask yourself: what other incentive could there be? Players WANT goals when they play, or they become bored very quickly. An engaging, beautiful game world will keep you occupied for a while, but even the biggest, prettiest sandbox becomes dull and repetitive in almost no time. That works in a single player game; you play it for a few hours, then you've had your fill and move on to the next game. It's a perfectly valid system, but it only works for single player games. As soon as you try to create a long-term, persistent multiplayer world, player boredom becomes your #1 enemy. Understandably so, as a multiplayer world lives off its inhabitants, and if you keep hemorrhaging players because they become bored, then the world will be underpopulated and the experience will suffer for everyone.

    But, again, I'm in no way saying that every MMO needs to be WoW, or have a WoW-like endgame. But they all need something, some incentive, some carrot to dangle in front of people to keep them engaged. It would be nice if we were all devoted players that are in it for the experience alone - but that's just not how the majority of people think and play. It's not going to happen.

    That's not to say there aren't people like that, though, and it's important to keep that in mind. But to be honest, I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be multiple layers within the game, multiple systems with multiple incentives that each cater to different types of players. That has been one of WoW's biggest strengths over the years, the variety offered at endgame. WoW, too, is in my opinion too limited and too simplistic in what it offers, but it still does it better than most other games. There simply must be SOMETHING TO DO, and the only way to get anyone off their fat asses and do it is by dangling a reward in front of them. For raiders, it's powerful gear; for other people, it may be pretty gear, or pets, or achievements, or even something abstract like a high PvP rating. Without the carrot-on-a-stick, an MMO would die.

    But implementation matters, too. Just having the rewards there isn't enough, it has to be done properly. WoW has made many mistakes in that regard in the past; TEOS, I hope, will learn from those. Gear inflation and welfare has to be balanced; incentives have to be matched to the expectations of their target audience; grinds have to be just right, not too quick, not too tedious; and many, many other factors that play an important role. But, yet again, there must be SOMETHING. So far, TEOS has not revealed a compelling reason to treat the game as anything else than Skyrim with PvP. That could be fine as a concept, but it will be an inherent limit to the game's success, population size, and playerbase diversity. I think it could do better. We'll have to wait for more information to see if it will.
    Agree with entire post, lot of crystal clear irrefutable points.

  19. #3899
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Clearly i said "So they arent launching with raids? The game just failed allready. I obviously meant that the game would fail without it launching with an endgame. A pvp endgame wont do either. In this day and age the game needs both to really be a success.
    Not every game has to appeal to the majority. It makes a game unique, it makes it's own identity that way and makes loyal customers.
    It's called carving their own niche.

  20. #3900
    Deleted
    I don't have the beta but if i did, i think i would say something along the lines of, it looks like GW2 with 3 factions, and not much else. Also looks like it plays similar to GW2. i think i will be dissapointed when this comes out, for sure going to get overhyped.

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