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  1. #461
    Deleted
    They created LFR for groups who couldnt down normal / didnt have the time to / didnt put the effort in. Enjoy that.

    But yes i get your point, agree to disagree, its been like this since wow has been running

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    They created LFR for groups who couldnt down normal / didnt have the time to / didnt put the effort in. Enjoy that.
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #463
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    This is where you and I can agree to disagree. I believe normal raids should be tuned for average raiders and that the middle of the bell curve should be finished or close to finishing the current raid teir before the next one is release not stuck halfway through because if they are not tuned tat way then you end up with fewer and fewer people raiding the current teir. If 40,000 guild groups started T14 and then we are now down to 20,000 starting T15 then by T16 it's 10,000 and Blizzard may ask if it's wort making content for only 10,000 raid groups.
    The ones who were stuck on garalon when T14 ended were simply bad. (its not an insult)
    Either raided once a month, or didnt ever valor capped, or didnt do LFR.

    I consider my raid to be a little better than average, we barely finish the tiers when the new one opens, raiding 5 hours a week. We do not valor cap everytime, most of us do our LFRs do get gear, half the raid doesnt even know the strategy when we try a new boss.
    Our raid is never full, we have to get 2/3 new guys every lockout and explain the strat to them, most of the time we need tanks, which is the worst role to need.
    We do mistakes, we f*ck up sometimes, but we try to improve our strat and end up killing the boss.

    I don't know what could be more average, stand in the fire everytime, raid 1 time a week, and don't follow the strat ?

    It this helps some people to enjoy ToT a little more, i'm happy for them, I just don't think it was needed at all .

  4. #464
    Deleted
    well, good thing blizzard is now catering to the majority of the gamers.
    Thanks to the nerfs we had some progress last night, (we were 6/12, now we are 9/12) less time wiping on the earlier bosses = more time to work on new bosses.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    exactly, I don't understand how people can be so oppossed to others playing the game when in fact, more people raiding = more resources spent developing raids = better raids. I mean, do they know blizzard nearly killed raiding back in cata because developing a game for 5% of the population was a waste of resources? Do they know dragon soul was what it was because of that fact?

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    The ones who were stuck on garalon when T14 ended were simply bad. (its not an insult)
    Either raided once a month, or didnt ever valor capped, or didnt do LFR.

    I consider my raid to be a little better than average, we barely finish the tiers when the new one opens, raiding 5 hours a week. We do not valor cap everytime, most of us do our LFRs do get gear, half the raid doesnt even know the strategy when we try a new boss.
    Our raid is never full, we have to get 2/3 new guys every lockout and explain the strat to them, most of the time we need tanks, which is the worst role to need.
    We do mistakes, we f*ck up sometimes, but we try to improve our strat and end up killing the boss.

    I don't know what could be more average, stand in the fire everytime, raid 1 time a week, and don't follow the strat ?

    It this helps some people to enjoy ToT a little more, i'm happy for them, I just don't think it was needed at all .
    No the people that were stuck on Garalon are bad compared to you. This is waht I have been trying to say, the people stuck on Garalon are the middle of the bell curve, they are the majority. If the majority stop raiding Blizzard will not provide normal raids and will only provide LFR. we should be trying to get more people to raid not less.

    I do also wonder however if part of the problem has been the difficlty curve of raids so far in this xpac. It's not so much been a difficulty curve as a difficulty rollercoaster with easier bosses gated behind much harder ones. ToES gated behind Empress for example when the first fights in ToES are easier.
    Last edited by Candiman; 2013-04-12 at 01:06 PM.

  6. #466
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    Why would anyone complain about these nerfs? They are for normal 10 man and it's only the first few bosses. It will allow a lot of guilds who were blocked to make a bit more progress. They'll still hit walls later on.

    Anyone who has already cleared those encounters is not affected.

    The Tortos nerf was definitely needed - it's not always possible in 10 man to have decent slows on them.

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    If the majority stop raiding Blizzard will not provide normal raids and will only provide LFR. we should be trying to get more people to raid not less.
    There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever. This is just wishful thinking on your part. (and you changed your post...)

    Raiding has always (since launch!) been an activity undertaken (and completed) by a minority of players.
    This has increased over time and with LFR, but there's absolutely no link between player pârticipation and BLizzard's developments. Look at scenarios. you see people participating in them ? no, yet we are getting hc scnearios.

    What has however happened, is that since LFR is out, people are asking for easier normal modes, than you can complete with no homework or effort, as people ask for in this thread.
    Last edited by mmoc8ee790e781; 2013-04-12 at 01:12 PM.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    There is absolutely no proof for this whatsoever. This is just wishful thinking on your part.
    Raiding has always (since launch!) been an activity undertaken (and completed) by a minority of players.
    This has increased over time and with LFR, but there's absolutely no link between player pârticipation and BLizzard's developments. Look at scenarios. you see people participating in them ? no, yet we are getting hc scnearios.

    What has however happened, is that since LFR is out, people are asking for easier normal modes, than you can complete with no homework or effort, as people ask for in this thread.
    No, there is proof for this. Blizzard have said that the original Naxx was seen by too few people. That is why the raiding model has changed. This is partly why LFR was introduced. So that the resources spent on creating raids are not seen as a waste. Raids take a lot of resources to create. If only 1% of your paying subscribers are using those resources then they will put those resources to better use.

    I would actually like someone in this thread to give me a reason why having less people raid is a good thing.
    Last edited by Candiman; 2013-04-12 at 01:16 PM.

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    No, there is proof for this. Blizzard have said that the original Naxx was seen by too few people. That is why the raiding model has changed. This is partly why LFR was introduced. So that the resources spent on creating raids are not seen as a waste. Raids take a lot of resources to create. If only 1% of your paying subscribers are using those resources then they will put those resources to better use.
    EXACTLY my point : if you can't complete normals, you have LFR.
    Participation in normals is not going to affect development, at all, as 1 raid developed = 3 difficulties. People see the content in LFR.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They may decide that LFR is the only level of difficulty that's worth providing. If they do, enjoy that.
    As far as I'm concerned, it is, because it's not like the people you associate with become any more pleasant as you ascend the difficulty ladder.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    I do also wonder however if part of the problem has been the difficlty curve of raids so far in this xpac. It's not so much been a difficulty curve as a difficulty rollercoaster with easier bosses gated behind much harder ones. ToES gated behind Empress for example when the first fights in ToES are easier.
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    EXACTLY my point : if you can't complete normals, you have LFR.
    Participation in normals is not going to affect development, at all, as 1 raid developed = 3 difficulties. People see the content in LFR.
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources. You have 10 normal,10 heroic, 25 normal and 25 heroic to balance, who is to say that if people do stop raiding normals Blizzard will not just stop developing them and just have LFR. To say that if you can't complete normals you have LFR is disingenious at best. A lot of raiders want to raid with their guilds and friends not 24 strangers.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources. You have 10 normal,10 heroic, 25 normal and 25 heroic to balance, who is to say that if people do stop raiding normals Blizzard will not just stop developing them and just have LFR. To say that if you can't complete normals you have LFR is disingenious at best. A lot of raiders want to raid with their guilds and friends not 24 strangers.
    Once you created the raid, the different difficulties is just numbers. very, very minimal time.

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)

    Yeah but on t14 the walls were better placed: on MSV it was elegon, on HOF it was garalon and on ToES it was tsulong...
    A guild stuck on elegon had the previous bosses to farm, could go clear the 1st 2 of HoF, eventually elegon would fall and progress was nice.

    A guild stuck on horridon could go farm t14... for my old guild this wasn't a fun option, because we have been raiding since the 2nd week of the raids being released and we had already killed all the bosses on normal mode, didn't really want to go and farm heroics, so we quickly disbanded... some of them quitted the game, this is a failure on design, a boss like horridon should have been the 4th boss, not the 2nd.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukem View Post
    The "difficulty rollercoaster" is the most valuable thing in raiding (too bad its not apliable on HCs). You cant make people bang a head agains a wall without knowing there is treasure on the other side, not just he loot from this boss but from all other easyer bosses after him. If you killed Emperess in HoF you got served protector loot for minimal effort and felt good. (we killed "Elite" protectors on 2nd pull after killing emperess back then). The greater obstacle you overcome the grater will be the reward. For exaple we worked 5hours on Durumu and after killing him we knew we will get Primordius and animus in the same amount of time or less (finally we killed it in next 3 hours next raidnight, man that felt good to down Durumu)
    No you see the reward for downing Durumu should have been the feeling that you had overcome a challenge with friends and got loot not that you now have 2 easier bosses to kill. You see you say the greater the obstacle the greater the reward but the boss after Durumu should be slightly harder and the one after that should be harder still. The treasure on the other side is the satisfaction of having killed the boss.

  16. #476
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Once you created the raid, the different difficulties is just numbers. very, very minimal time.
    No not really. You have to spend time spamling in tons of data and tuning and factoring all kinds of information. It takes money and more importantly TIME to do that, it may very well not be worth doing if it takes that much time. Of your missing the point entirely though. If 95% of the raiding community is raiding lfr guess who the raids will be developed in mind for?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    I would actually like someone in this thread to give me a reason why having less people raid is a good thing.
    Anyone?

    /10chars

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The point is that currently theres a huge clump of people not being catered to.

    There is LFR (super easy, no teamwork required)
    Then Normal mode (difficult, lots of teamwork, coordination, tactics, gear, skill and homework)
    Then Heroic mode (really difficult, all of the above + extreme skill and persistence.)

    There is no place to go if you are vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill. Or, another way to look at it is the difficulty levels of previous versions of wow is no longer present.
    Their is no MEDIUM difficulty. The "busy" nature of normal raids and the fact that avoidable dmg STILL HITS YOU FOR DMG EVEN IF YOU AVOID IT means your just punished no matter what. The best example I can think of is Megara. In fact that one boss is a microcosm of everything wrong with raiding today. The first 4 or 5 heads are way to easy. Then all of a sudden number 6 is a fucking nightmare, the floor turns into an obstacle course, everybody takes dmg and nobody is stacked up and you've got 10 things to pay attention to in addition to your job of healing. It's all to much all at once and their is no sweet spot.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarela View Post
    Yeah but on t14 the walls were better placed: on MSV it was elegon, on HOF it was garalon and on ToES it was tsulong...
    A guild stuck on elegon had the previous bosses to farm, could go clear the 1st 2 of HoF, eventually elegon would fall and progress was nice.

    A guild stuck on horridon could go farm t14... for my old guild this wasn't a fun option, because we have been raiding since the 2nd week of the raids being released and we had already killed all the bosses on normal mode, didn't really want to go and farm heroics, so we quickly disbanded... some of them quitted the game, this is a failure on design, a boss like horridon should have been the 4th boss, not the 2nd.
    If you killed all 16/16 in the time yout should not have much difficulty on Horridon... but guild disbanding over such small thing like not killing boss in 1 week? how much time did you gave him? I assume you dont raid 20+ hours so giving him a healthy 10 hours of progress should be no problem, did you never got stucked on Boss?
    my brain just cant process this... and I dont know what tied you together all that T14 if 1week on Horridon was enough to break you down.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    Yes but developing the different difficulties still takes resources.
    Also, designing the encounters for higher difficulty levels, then awkwardly adapting them to LFR, leads to the most important encounter -- the version in LFR -- not working all that well. This may be the biggest hidden cost of multiple difficulty levels, the design constraints that it introduces.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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