Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Arrashi]

A tweet from Kosak also suggests that he's bluffing, and that they're going to give alliance an option to call his bluff and 'make him sweat a little.'

I knew this maggot doesnt have a spine after all. On topic of sweating i wonder if he's going to wash himself before 5.4. It would be shame to lead the rebelion while smelling like piss and cocaine. So take a bath Vol'jin. But please don't use bath salts.

[Dreknar20]

So take a bath Vol'jin. But please don't use bath salts.

Da voodoo be strong within dem bath salts.

[Olrox]

He was basically just blowing things out of proportion to make a point and say his plan is the better plan, doesn't mean he is going to be garrosh 2.0

This dude's got it right. He's by no means being an asshole or anti-Alliance...he's just using illustrating a point.

[Fayolynn]

Thats something to remember. Even with all the Alliance QQ about "losing", there is still more Alliance only zones than Horde only zones.

The "losing QQ" as you put it is not the issue for Alliance players. The understand why the territory changes had to happen for game play balance reasons as well as to drive the story. The issue is with how the loses happened from a story telling perspective.

Andorhal is the perfect example, the entire Alliance chain makes it feel like they are winning. Until the last turn in when you get told "Woops we lost, better luck someplace else." If the chain had been written with a more desperate negative tone which made the Alliance player realize "Shit we are losing this battle." than the end of the chain were they get told the Alliance lost wouldn't have felt like a slap in the face.

South Shore was originally going to be wiped out by a tidal wave caused by Deathwing. Then they changed it into another victory for the Horde war machine. Why did they feel the need to make that zone into another example of OMG LOOK HOW AWESOME THE HORDE IS!

I could go on and list more examples, but I'm sure instead of reading and and trying to understand what the complaints are you are going to just going to ignore everything and reply with something about Alliance players QQing.

[mercutiouk]

Wow, such a long thread with the random mis-conceptions.

It's CLEARLY "you don't like the plan (where we work together) - fine, go die, I'll come in and finish off. OR we can stick to the plan, work together, kill him and still go our separate ways at the end."

He's saying that working together doesn't mean we have to be friends (alliance and horde). It's VERY clear.

[Dreknar20]

South Shore was originally going to be wiped out by a tidal wave caused by Deathwing. Then they changed it into another victory for the Horde war machine. Why did they feel the need to make that zone into another example of OMG LOOK HOW AWESOME THE HORDE IS!
.

maybe they changed it because a change due to tidal waves and what not was used to much and becoming redundant

[Deleted]

If it turns out to be a full Alliance invasion, then Vol'jins ideas would seem pretty fanciful.

[Deleted]

If it turns out to be a full Alliance invasion, then Vol'jins ideas would seem pretty fanciful.

Without Vol'jin and his rebellion. Here is exactly how a full Alliance invasion would go out.

Alliance invade Durotar shoreline. Garrosh has prepared defences, heavy Alliance loses on the beachhead.

Siege of Ogrimmar gate, heavily defended, not broken by an attack.

Long Siege is prepared. Supply lines through the Barrens mean Ogrimmar is well supplied, Siege has to be lifted, Alliance Loss.

[Deleted]

Without Vol'jin and his rebellion. Here is exactly how a full Alliance invasion would go out.

Alliance invade Durotar shoreline. Garrosh has prepared defences, heavy Alliance loses on the beachhead.

Siege of Ogrimmar gate, heavily defended, not broken by an attack.

Long Siege is prepared. Supply lines through the Barrens mean Ogrimmar is well supplied, Siege has to be lifted, Alliance Loss.

And what if the alliance plays by the rules so they can get the docks with the help of the rebellion, then, with the same help break the frontal gate, then, after they are inside and finished the job, turn on the rebellion itself, brining more ships trough the dock to reinforce their forces against the now unstable horde?

And I think this could end up happening, but Varian (or Anduin, who will, in turn, stop Varian from doing it.) will stop it and end up doing a brofist with Vol'jin.

[Deleted]

And what if the alliance plays by the rules so they can get the docks with the help of the rebellion, then, with the same help break the frontal gate, then, after they are inside and finished the job, turn on the rebellion itself, brining more ships trough the dock to reinforce their forces against the now unstable horde?

And I think this could end up happening, but Varian (or Anduin, who will, in turn, stop Varian from doing it.) will stop it and end up doing a brofist with Vol'jin.

Because the Alliance, who no doubt would bear the brunt of the Attack, is now weakened, in the middle of a former enemy stronghold, with an enemy who knows the layout of the city, and will probably have fared better in the assault, With a group of soldiers far better equiped for a personal skirmish.

Varian is a good warrior and all, but when he's standing knee deep in Orc and Human parts, will he even think of trying to backstab a Troll who just backstabbed the Warchief? Varian probably wouldn't be able to move without a dagger in his neck from either Vol'jin or a Saim-Quashi Bloodslayer.

[Deamon002]

Without Vol'jin and his rebellion. Here is exactly how a full Alliance invasion would go out.

Alliance invade Durotar shoreline. Garrosh has prepared defences, heavy Alliance loses on the beachhead.

Siege of Ogrimmar gate, heavily defended, not broken by an attack.

Long Siege is prepared. Supply lines through the Barrens mean Ogrimmar is well supplied, Siege has to be lifted, Alliance Loss.

Dream on.

Garrosh can't fortify the entire Durotar coastline; it would take years, not to mention manpower and resources he does not have. If he spreads his forces out, they'll be overwhelmed and crushed at the point of contact; if he concentrates his forces the fleet will simply disembark somewhere else.

Orgrimmar is a strong defensive position, yes. The chokepoint at the gate means a ground assault would be costly. It is, however, quite vulnerable to air attack. If air superiority can be established, the city is basically done for. Especially since it is located in a canyon. Once the defenders are cleared from the top of the cliffs (trivial if you have control of the skies) the entire city becomes one giant killzone for snipers.

Even if you assume that this cannot be done and a long siege is needed however... what supply lines? The whole point of a siege is to cut off supply lines. There's only three ways into the city, each of which is a easily blocked chokepoint. No supplies come in, Orgrimmar has no fresh water sources of its own, city is forced to surrender within the week. Maybe a month, if they have stockpiled water.

Seriously, I don't get that. What made you think the words "siege" and "supply lines" belonged in the same sentence, except to then follow up with "cut off"?

[Deleted]

Dream on.

Garrosh can't fortify the entire Durotar coastline; it would take years, not to mention manpower and resources he does not have. If he spreads his forces out, they'll be overwhelmed and crushed at the point of contact; if he concentrates his forces the fleet will simply disembark somewhere else.

Orgrimmar is a strong defensive position, yes. The chokepoint at the gate means a ground assault would be costly. It is, however, quite vulnerable to air attack. If air superiority can be established, the city is basically done for. Especially since it is located in a canyon. Once the defenders are cleared from the top of the cliffs (trivial if you have control of the skies) the entire city becomes one giant killzone for snipers.

Even if you assume that this cannot be done and a long siege is needed however... what supply lines? The whole point of a siege is to cut off supply lines. There's only three ways into the city, each of which is a easily blocked chokepoint. No supplies come in, Orgrimmar has no fresh water sources of its own city is forced to surrender within the week. Maybe a month, if they have stockpiled water.

Seriously, I don't get that. What made you think the words "siege" and "supply lines" belonged in the same sentence, except to then follow up with "cut off"?

You should really check out 5.3 pictures. The only place the Alliance could land safely is in Southern Durotar. Then it's just a case of marching your army over the entire length of Durotar, THEN Attack a huge city wall, THEN try and storm the city. THEN try and kill Garrosh.

Also, getting air superiority. from a Naval assault against a stronghold with airship docks? Are you high?

And I'll just point out the three entrances. You'll need a large army to fight through Aszhara, home to many goblin things. to even try and cut that supply way off, You'd probably have to capture bilgewater habor also.

The side entrance is tricky, but probably alot more doable, but it costs resources and time to try and hold it down. Now Your Army is split, and you can probably not hold the siege as Garrosh can simply divert forces to a major counterpush against either the main gate or the Aszhara gate to relive the pressure.

[Florena]

I don't disagree that the alliance story in Cata was frustrating to say the least. I wouldn't have minded Andorhol if Koltira had outwitted Thassarian, but seeing Sylvannas pull a diablos ex machina at the end when she's already gotten so much development in silverpine, and never seeing the Thassarian/Koltira story developed further was just annoying. I was also hoping that there wouldn't be phasing in that city. I think it would have been very interesting to see a very uneasy relationship between the 'neighboring' cities with forsaken holding east and alliance west to see what RP would come of it, but instead we got this.

As for Gilneas. at least Gilneas is still in game as a zone and battleground. The goblins entirely lose kezan/lost isles. Cannot go back ever. And at this point in lore it's ambiguous as to who actually holds Gilneas since the assassination of Creed.

Twilight highlands I'll agree was awefull the way they scrapped our original intro in favor of a comic expy, and Highbank was never fully constructed like Dragonmaw Port. Rest of the zone I liked though, showing a faction contrast, the Horde having to battle for dominance, while the Alliance story was about bringing the clans together and uniting them.

But all these story debacles aside, I still think the zone equalization was a good thing. Even if it's not perfectly balanced still, it's still better balanced than it was before, and as an MMO blizz needs to deliver on both gameplay and story. Just because they failed with the story aspect in places doesn't mean that the entire balancing was a bad idea from the get go.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 09:52 AM ----------

You should really check out 5.3 pictures. The only place the Alliance could land safely is in Southern Durotar. Then it's just a case of marching your army over the entire length of Durotar, THEN Attack a huge city wall, THEN try and storm the city. THEN try and kill Garrosh.

Also, getting air superiority. from a Naval assault against a stronghold with airship docks? Are you high?

And I'll just point out the three entrances. You'll need a large army to fight through Aszhara, home to many goblin things. to even try and cut that supply way off, You'd probably have to capture bilgewater habor also.

The side entrance is tricky, but probably alot more doable, but it costs resources and time to try and hold it down. Now Your Army is split, and you can probably not hold the siege as Garrosh can simply divert forces to a major counterpush against either the main gate or the Aszhara gate to relive the pressure.

I agree with many of your points, but take a look at the newly upgraded Skyfire, and the average lifespan of horde airships in this game. I'd be surprised if the Skyfire isn't playing a part in the alliance invasion.

[Dreknar20]

I agree with many of your points, but take a look at the newly upgraded Skyfire, and the average lifespan of horde airships in this game. I'd be surprised if the Skyfire isn't playing a part in the alliance invasion.

give me a wyvren and ill take of that

[Fayolynn]

maybe they changed it because a change due to tidal waves and what not was used to much and becoming redundant

I see what you are saying, but they could have kept the south shore tidal wave, which was one of the first planned changes to the world and come up with something different for one of the other zones. Instead they used the redundant tidal wave in 2 Alliance zones and gave the Horde another Victory in the war.

[Florena]

give me a wyvren and ill take of that

I don't think so. We're best buddies now until Garrosh is dead. Besides only Worgen are badass enough to pull that off.

[Deleted]

I can't really see the point in the Alliance being there then. We're helping the Horde carry out a coup against a corrupt, hated leader when it would be much more expedient to let the Horde fight each other and weaken themselves from within. I had anticipated a full Alliance invasion, say after a Naval victory and a landing from Southern Barrens, supported by forces in Ashenvale and Stonetalon. I don't see how the Alliance gains from this.

edit: On second thoughts, I looked at that tweet you linked by Kosak on the previous page and that clears things up a little! https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/322815138476474369

[Dreknar20]

I don't see how the Alliance gains from this.

The Horde gets fucked up. As a leader you want your enemies to be as weak and pathetic as possible.
As to why the Alliance dsnt achieve total victory.....well that answer is obvious

[Arrashi]

I don't think so. We're best buddies now until Garrosh is dead. Besides only Worgen are badass enough to pull that off.

Worgen and badass in one sentence. Best joke 2011 is making glorious comeback ?

[lupii]

He's the one coming crawling to us to mop up his faction's issues. How about if he doesn't like it, we can watch the rest his little troll population get dragged out into Durotar and shot like they already are.

Well thats a lie right there. Alliance go to HIM, not the other way around. SI-7 notice that the trolls are rebelling and go to Vol'jin. The player Character goes to vol'jin!