The Alliance and its loss of Identity.

[Alfryd]

I read that whole wall of text from the OP

Rather ironic ;p

[SodiumChloride]

Yes they are? It's stated in several outside sources that are connected to Blizzard that Dark Irons are completely different. They don't even have the Ironforge accent according to Blizzard. Yet there's no elaboration or explanation as to why/what/how.

They don't seem different. Even if they are and they change IF's culture, I don't see how they are losing their identity, rather their identity is evolving but it would still be uniquely dwarf.

Using real life humans as a parallel is a bad case, because each human society is entirely different.

France and England had such huge ideological differences in the 13th centenary that it contributed to the 100 years war. (Chivalry v Renegade).

Each culture in WoW evolved uniquely and seperately, I don't understand how you can say that they won't be different. So you think a culture that walled itself off for 20 years, suffered a civil war and then a Worgen curse would be exactly same to a Stormwindian? No, of course not. They would be completely different, and their culture needs to reflect that.

Firstly, almost every fantasy game/world has humans in them. They represent real life "normal" humans - from the author PoV at least. They are the default race which almost everyone can relate to. The other races are also "human" but with aspects of their culture taken to an extreme.

2ndly, in a game like WoW with it's sloppy lore, I feel we should not expect too much. Culturally there is no different within races as far as it's portrayed in WoW. At most there are political divides, e.g. Blood Elves vs High Elves.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here no offense.

Giving Mages to Night Elves = hamfisted writing because they had to balance the classes on each faction

Everything? I want a culture. Not 'They're the Alliance's engineers'. That's lame, sloppy and boring writing, and no race in the Horde has no identity other than what they provide for the Horde. So again, it's not fair or even.

They do have a culture. They are the "geeks" of WoW. They could careless of politics and other "normal" stuff. Tech is their one and only obsession.

Nope, already covered and you'd be silly to honestly think that.

See above.

Yes? Not only do I think that, but Blizzard does too.

Hamfisted writing is hamfisted writing. Blizzard has always "bent" the plot for the sake of gameplay content. Consistency, pacing, ... etc. be damned

[Sivick]

Rather ironic ;p

I know i tried to be less wall-e (pun) about it.

[Deleted]

and thanks to that alliance regained Dalaran and the kirin tor. Just sayin'....

Oh PLEASE, Dalaran should have had nothing, NOTHING to do with the horde in the first place. That is ABSURD. Horde players in vanilla killed Kirin Tor mages around dalaran and silverpine no joke, and they still did in Cataclysm.
And just to point out, WHERE is that alliance dalaran? In some mistical land I persume, not to say that after Garrosh is dead it might, surely, become neutral again, like nothing happened.

And that just comes out to show that if any, ANY settlement fails, it can be replaced. See? Alliance can regain Lordaeron, Forsaken can in turn populate Stratholme.
Orgrimmar falls, orcs rebuild it.

[Verdugo]

See? Alliance can regain Lordaeron, Forsaken can in turn populate Stratholme.

Problem is, Alliance wouldnt regain Lordaeron, they would gain rotting pit of biological hazards, and then you would have alliance QQ how it is not pretty like in warcraft 3 cinematic.

[Deleted]

Problem is, Alliance wouldnt regain Lordaeron, they would gain rotting pit of biological hazards, and then you would have alliance QQ how it is not pretty like in warcraft 3 cinematic.

It's funny how a few paladins and druids and a lot of working peasants can change a zone in a few weeks...given you pay them. We dont need Defias v2

[Verdugo]

It's funny how a few paladins and druids and a lot of working peasants can change a zone in a few weeks...given you pay them. We dont need Defias v2

They can dispel the effects of magical plague, not mundane, biological toxins.

And even then, should they ever clean it up and civilians move in, dump more of the stuff from the air, without any warning.

[Deleted]

They can dispel the effects of magical plague, not mundane, biological toxins.

Let me reiterate. Its funny how a zone creation specialist can totally change a zone and make an excuse about it. Given you pay him.

[Verdugo]

Let me reiterate. Its funny how a zone creation specialist can totally change a zone and make an excuse about it. Given you pay him.

Then pay him, what are you waiting for.

[bufferunderrun]

Oh PLEASE, Dalaran should have had nothing, NOTHING to do with the horde in the first place. That is ABSURD. Horde players in vanilla killed Kirin Tor mages around dalaran and silverpine no joke, and they still did in Cataclysm.
And just to point out, WHERE is that alliance dalaran? In some mistical land I persume, not to say that after Garrosh is dead it might, surely, become neutral again, like nothing happened.

And that just comes out to show that if any, ANY settlement fails, it can be replaced. See? Alliance can regain Lordaeron, Forsaken can in turn populate Stratholme.
Orgrimmar falls, orcs rebuild it.

yes lets just disregard completely development time, quests and zone flows, dungeons disposition etc just to appense alliance ego.....

[Deleted]

yes lets just disregard completely development time, quests and zone flows, dungeons disposition etc just to appense alliance ego.....

They did that to appense to horde ego. What do you think was the entire Cataclysm expansion? One big horde e-peen strokefest. Why not alliance aswell, i ask? Plus, i was talking kinda hypothetically.

[Wildberry]

Most of the people you listed weren't even part of the Horde. Are you really crying after characters like Gorefiend? And the ones that the Horde did lose, like Magatha, fuck you should be glad. She was bad from the start.

-Zul'Jin (Leader of the Forest Trolls who were definitely Horde WCII)
-The ENTIRE Stormreaver/Twilight's Hammer Clan (Two Major Horde Clans WCII)
-Teron Gorefiend (Horde playable hero and the first Death Knight WCII)
-Ner'Zhul (He was legitimately tricked by Kil'Jaeden WCII)
-Zuluhed the Whacked (Leader of the Dragonmaw during WCII)
-Cho'gall (Chieftan of the Twilight's Hammer Clan WCII)
-Kargath Bladefist (Chieftan of the Shattered Hand Clan WCII-era)
-Kael'thas Sunstrider (Leader of the Blood Elves when they joined the Horde)
-Tagar Spinebreaker (Chieftan of the Bonechewer Clan WCII-era)
-Grand Apothecary Putress (Member of the RAS before the plague fiasco)
-Magatha & The Grimtotem (She was in Thunder Bluff and provided an interesting enough story)

In the Future:
-General Nazgrim (Loyal member of the Horde since WotLK, Counterpart to Admiral Taylor)
-Warlord Zaela (New Chieftan of the Dragonmaw Clan)
-Garrosh Hellscream (Was likeable before being beaten to a pulp with the villain bat)
-Malkorok (Granted Amnesty by post-villain-ized Garrosh)
-Jastor Gallywix?

[Deleted]

-Zul'Jin (Leader of the Forest Trolls who were definitely Horde WCII)
-The ENTIRE Stormreaver/Twilight's Hammer Clan (Two Major Horde Clans WCII)
-Teron Gorefiend (Horde playable hero and the first Death Knight WCII)
-Ner'Zhul (He was legitimately tricked by Kil'Jaeden WCII)
-Zuluhed the Whacked (Leader of the Dragonmaw during WCII)
-Cho'gall (Chieftan of the Twilight's Hammer Clan WCII)
-Kargath Bladefist (Chieftan of the Shattered Hand Clan WCII-era)
-Kael'thas Sunstrider (Leader of the Blood Elves when they joined the Horde)
-Tagar Spinebreaker (Chieftan of the Bonechewer Clan WCII-era)
-Grand Apothecary Putress (Member of the RAS before the plague fiasco)
-Magatha & The Grimtotem (She was in Thunder Bluff and provided an interesting enough story)

In the Future:
-General Nazgrim (Loyal member of the Horde since WotLK, Counterpart to Admiral Taylor)
-Warlord Zaela (New Chieftan of the Dragonmaw Clan)
-Garrosh Hellscream (Was likeable before being beaten to a pulp with the villain bat)
-Malkorok (Granted Amnesty by post-villain-ized Garrosh)
-Jastor Gallywix?

The Dark Horde is not the New Horde. Zul'Jin, Stormreavers/Twilight hammer clans, Teron Gorefiend, Ner'Zhul and everyone else you counted were never even been a part of the New Horde. With exception to Putress, who nobody cared about untill Wrathgate, and now nobody cares about, and the grimtotem, who also don't care about the horde, and never been horde. Actually, in fact, they ally with the alliance in the Stonetalon Mountains. Or i can start counting Old alliance heroes and settlements that were lost/villianized and killed.

[bufferunderrun]

They did that to appense to horde ego. What do you think was the entire Cataclysm expansion? One big horde e-peen strokefest. Why not alliance aswell, i ask? Plus, i was talking kinda hypothetically.

what are you talking about any horde quest chains solves into nothing, ashenvale, stonetalon, are all cut without displaying anything in game much like any alliance one to not disrupt quest flow for the counterpart.

[Deleted]

what are you talking about any horde quest chains solves into nothing, ashenvale, stonetalon, are all cut without displaying anything in game much like any alliance one to not disrupt quest flow for the counterpart.

What about the oh so fabled Worgen zones, their questing became pretty disrupted if you ask me? No, they preferred forsaken development instead.
Blizzard themselves said it, originally they planned to have worgen in silverpine and hillsbrad and arathi, but who has time for that? Send them to be the night elves' pets.

And if you disagree with that, clearly you dont know the feel of fighting the forsaken in gilneas and suddenly ending in darkshore, helping some dumb night elves who can't help themselves.

[Deleted]

-Zul'Jin (Leader of the Forest Trolls who were definitely Horde WCII)
-The ENTIRE Stormreaver/Twilight's Hammer Clan (Two Major Horde Clans WCII)
-Teron Gorefiend (Horde playable hero and the first Death Knight WCII)
-Ner'Zhul (He was legitimately tricked by Kil'Jaeden WCII)
-Zuluhed the Whacked (Leader of the Dragonmaw during WCII)
-Cho'gall (Chieftan of the Twilight's Hammer Clan WCII)
-Kargath Bladefist (Chieftan of the Shattered Hand Clan WCII-era)
-Kael'thas Sunstrider (Leader of the Blood Elves when they joined the Horde)
-Tagar Spinebreaker (Chieftan of the Bonechewer Clan WCII-era)
-Grand Apothecary Putress (Member of the RAS before the plague fiasco)
-Magatha & The Grimtotem (She was in Thunder Bluff and provided an interesting enough story)

In the Future:
-General Nazgrim (Loyal member of the Horde since WotLK, Counterpart to Admiral Taylor)
-Warlord Zaela (New Chieftan of the Dragonmaw Clan)
-Garrosh Hellscream (Was likeable before being beaten to a pulp with the villain bat)
-Malkorok (Granted Amnesty by post-villain-ized Garrosh)
-Jastor Gallywix?

Ok, let me rephrase it then. Most of them were not part of the current Horde. Zul'jin opposed the new Horde, because it allied with the Blood Elves. He was never part of Thrall's Horde. Gorefiend, Ner'zhul, Zuluhed, Cho'gall, Kargath. Tagar, none of them were ever part of Thrall's Horde. They were also villains before WoW. So are you criticizing Blizzard for making the Horde the clear villains in WC1 and WC2?

[Deleted]

It's funny how a few paladins and druids and a lot of working peasants can change a zone in a few weeks...given you pay them. We dont need Defias v2

If it was that easy we wouldn't have the Dead Scar, Blasted Lands, Felwood, Hellfire Peninsula, Auchindoun, Deadwind Pass or other magic-befouled zones. Rejuvenation is possible... sometimes. Sometimes bad stuff just stays.

OP, nice points. I miss WC3 night elves. I want Furion to go "that angers me greatly" on orcoblins in Ashenvale, I want a real push to retake Azshara, instead of seeing major lore figures go neutral and Tyrande changing from a fierce holy warrior into a doormat, and Cenarius going "bygones are bygones". Orcs slaughtering elves in Ashenvale, Darkshore and Stonetalon, while at the same time invited to Hyjal leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Especially when they bomb Theramore as the hat-trick.

I want my "far too tall, and far too savage" race back.

[Viradiance]

I think you are over using religious beliefs as an identifier for each race. you never assume any group within them are athiests who don't believe in any of this hocus pocus

Honestly, there can't be atheists in WoW. Every single 'religious' class and faction can pretty objectively use their powers.

There's evidence that Elune exists in that she can literally rain stars from the sky to murder a priest's enemies or heal wounds in an instant.

Elementals can be physically seen and fuck shit up.

The Light can make users immortal for a brief period of time.

Atheist implies that they wouldn't believe in the power. There's no reason to not believe. They might simply choose to not worship it, but the stuff pretty objectively exists.

[Northem]

Night Elves and Humans suffer far more from Cenarios Circle and Argent Crusade respectively because it's a huge part of their culture.

In my OP (which I do implore, please read! ), I did mention that indeed the Taurens are in the CC, and then I explicitly explained why I do not consider theirs nearly as damaging as the Night Elves presence. Because their form of druidism isn't fundamental to their culture, in fact in WC3 it was non-existent. It was tagged on in WoW so Horde could get a Druid race. Tauren don't lose anything, because they're exchanging something that they never really had. There's no immediate lore on Tauren druids, and their culture is far more shamanistic/ancestor worship than druidic, unlike the Night Elves which could safely be catorgorised into the female Elune division, and the male Druid division. Ergo, the Night Elves lost 50% of their identity in one fel swoop. On top of that, the Night Elves lost one of it's main leaders. Malfurion. Where as the Tauren druid leader, Hamuul, was never mentioned outside of WoW and was introduced, again, to support the concept that Tauren have druids. He was created entirely out of a plot device, whereas Malfurion has cemented lore in both druidism and night elf culture. And Blizzard butchered him for the sake of neutrality.

and the Humans suffer with the Argent Crusade because it neutralized their main class. No, let me re-phrase that. It neutralized the Alliance's factional conceptional class. The Argent Crusade would be ok and fine if the Alliance still had updated Paladin lore, and Paladins still represented the Alliance as a whole. But there is none. I found it incredibly sad when on the WoW forums, someone asked which faction had the strongest class (ergo Horde has the strongest Shamans and the Alliance has the strongest Priests), and the majority said that the Horde had the strongest Paladins simply because the Alliance has NO 'main' paladins that aren't neutral.

The Alliance lost its paladins due to neutrality in conjunction with bad writing (no, I don't begrudge the Horde getting paladins, but I do begrudge the way they wrote them in. It reeks of bad writing). So yes, I do believe neutral factions (especially CC and AG) have damaged the Alliance in much more severe ways than the Horde. The only Horde damage done by neutral factions is really Earthen Ring, and that's because it took Thrall from you. But as many people have stated, including Metzen himself, Thrall is going back to the Horde. So much for neutral.

Can the Alliance get Khadger/Tirion/Malfurion back yet please? Pretty please?



I'm not going to lie, I don't see why so many people are focusing on this one point when I myself consider it a minor point. But alrighty then. Humans were given specific lore that stated they evolved, as cultures, in different ways. Cultural reformation is represented in art. Architecture is a form of art, yet it is not represented.

All I was trying to say is I wanted to give the Human nations a form of identity outside of 'We're humans so obviously we like Stormwind, and the Light'. I mean, Gilneas started off well but then it simply died and merged with Stormwind/Darnasssus.

There was no lore for Tauren variation (in fact, quite the opposite. Considering they're, you know, nomads, it doesn't make sense they have buildings anyway). Orcs was given no lore for variation. Forsaken come from a single nation, so it wouldn't make sense if they had variation. Goblins come from one cartel, and Blood Elves come from one nation.

Humans do not. It'd be like saying back in the 13th century, England had the same building designs as France or Spain. We didn't, we had our own unique design and visiting the countries would offer a wildly different experience. I want that for the Humans, I want Blizzard to develop the humans outside of 'they're humans and they like the Light'. Give each Human nation a cultural identity and stick with it (unlike Gilneas which they so, so obviously gave up on)




And the Horde have treated them so nicely, yes? (Sylvanas blackmailing them, Garrosh because a racist douche and both of them combined have deliberately wasted precious Blood Elven troops. You know, all the reasons why the Blood Elves left the Alliance to begin with. Them being in the Horde is a lore folly, and there's no argument to counter it except Horde needed a pretty race)



I'm not going to lie, I don't overly care about Pandaren. They could join the Horde for all I care, and like I said in my OP, the only function they serve right now is further exacerbating the Alliance's problem of dull races. My main point of them is introducing yet another Neutral race, and tagging it on to both the Alliance AND the Horde was a bad idea.




Because they did it in two entirely different ways?

Malfurion going neutral didn't make sense. The Horde was literally firing arrows at his 'wife', the Horde was burning down Ashenvale forest and killing Night Elves and decimating everything he ever believed in. Yet he had forced neutrality onto him.

Thrall going neutral made a different kind of sense. The Alliance never threatened what he was doing (fixing the world, unlike the Horde that did threaten what Malfurion was trying to do).

Plus, Thrall is destined to go back to the Horde. He's quite literally been promised to return to your own faction. Which is great, I support that, I hate this whole neutral concept, but where is the Alliance's promise of neutrality removed? If anything, we have more of our own heroes lining up to take the neutral plunge.

So far, we've lost

-Khadger
-Tirion
-Malfurion
-Rhonin


in my prediction, we will lose

-Anduin
-Velen
-Jania (seriously, the moment Garrosh is dead I'll almost bet money that she'll have a sudden realization that war is bad and Dalaran will go neutral again).


You bringing up Thrall only works at your disadvantage. You've had one main hero go neutral. The Alliance has lost dozens.

As I stated above I agree with your statements, both this and your OP. Also I share your pessimism about the future of the Alliance, as it is obvious that Blizzard favors the Horde. As proof of this I will enunciate some prophecies that will be fulfilled, as you can see "soon":

• Dalaran / Jaina / Kirin Tor will again be neutral or begin to take steps towards neutrality.
• Blizzard will never allow Alleria and Turalyon being what they are: heroes of the Alliance.
• The Queen Calia will never have any kind of prominence or importance, at least with respect to the Alliance.

You'll see ...

[Deleted]

As I stated above I agree with your statements, both this and your OP. Also I share your pessimism about the future of the Alliance, as it is obvious that Blizzard favors the Horde. As proof of this I will enunciate some prophecies that will be fulfilled, as you can see "soon":

• Dalaran / Jaina / Kirin Tor will again be neutral or begin to take steps towards neutrality.
• Blizzard will never allow Alleria and Turalyon being what they are: heroes of the Alliance.
• The Queen Calia will never have any kind of prominence or importance, at least with respect to the Alliance.

You'll see ...

That queen calia you speak of...Didn't she die?