Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Deleted]

Hope this will be one of the last posts.

It's been said time and again that LFR is the biggest reason to pinpoint the answer to the question "Where have all the raiders gone?".

Yet people keep discussing this to death - and come up with all sorts of reasons as to why this is:

- the normal difficulty being too high
- the application process is too much work

These two small reasons come up every few pages and people go bonkers over this.

The funny thing is that the application process (extreme applications always have existed but are the minority of a minority of a minority, be real) has been there since Vanilla. Sure in Vanilla they weren't and couldn't be that elaborate. So if you encounter guilds that have application forms or require some effort before joining: DO NO JOIN THOSE GUILDS BUT SEARCH FOR A GUILD THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO DO THIS.

How hard is that? Well seeing as not a lot of raidingguilds still exist apart from the strong guilds, who were usually a tad more hardcore - there they have application forms. And rightly so. And why do these guilds still exist (for now) and not the "normal" guilds that before didn't require much of an application? Oh yes... LFR.
Suprise?

The other reason is the difficulty. Which is a logical explanation. But if that were really the case, wouldn't the official forums have people screaming for nerfs? Apart from a couple of people in this thread, I see no outcry for nerfs on these boards either. So is it really that hard? Or is it just that the guilds who are attempting normal modes, have recruited people with so little experience and LFR attitude, that yes they will have a hard time?

You can blame what you will however you will, LFR is the main culprit. Would we want to get rid of LFR? No - but this is an effect that LFR has done (amongst other things).

So you can discuss at length, but the elephant in the room will not go away.

I think i'm right in saying that people who crash and burn in normals will just run LFR instead or quit the game, it's generally only the very keen or people with a definitive issue who ever post on any of the various forums.

Your post is also a bit of a loop - you say that guilds should recruit with harsher criteria so they can pass the test that is normal modes, and then say people are failing because they didn't set the test. it's not like a test or application in and of itself grants the skills needed to pass it, all it does is dismiss from raiding anyone who can't make the grade.

A universally used application test would indeed put the percentage of successful raids up but at the same time would crater the total amount of raiders. Again, I see this a lot - hardcores remove anyone they find unsuitable to associate with and then completely forget the person they excluded still exists. Johnny Clownshoes who doesn't make the grade for normal modes probably carries on playing - doing LFR and Bg's and dailies - he's just waiting for the raids to come down to his level so he can do organised content once more.

[Vaelorian]

I think i'm right in saying that people who crash and burn in normals will just run LFR instead or quit the game, it's generally only the very keen or people with a definitive issue who ever post on any of the various forums.

Your post is also a bit of a loop - you say that guilds should recruit with harsher criteria so they can pass the test that is normal modes, and then say people are failing because they didn't set the test. it's not like a test or application in and of itself grants the skills needed to pass it, all it does is dismiss from raiding anyone who can't make the grade.

A universally used application test would indeed put the percentage of successful raids up but at the same time would crater the total amount of raiders. Again, I see this a lot - hardcores remove anyone they find unsuitable to associate with and then completely forget the person they excluded still exists. Johnny Clownshoes who doesn't make the grade for normal modes probably carries on playing - doing LFR and Bg's and dailies - he's just waiting for the raids to come down to his level so he can do organised content once more.

It doesn't matter that they exclude that person. They play with people they want to play with. It works the same in kindergarten. You be friends with people you like. And people work a lot like guilds. The older the person becomes the less friends he will have (less REAL or best-friends) - this is a lot like heroic raiders actually. They are "older" already (as the example) and have less time to spend on people who aren't likeminded. Ok perhaps not the best example. But this is somewhat conveying my point. I hope you agree.

When I was in a raiding guild (I started out as a casual friends guild), I didn't invite everytone that I was friends with. I invited the players that I was friends with + they had to be at a certain skilllevel. If they weren't up to that level they didn't get an invite. Or they could be invited but would not be allowed to raid. As time went on, apart from a few players, I replaced everyone of those players. The requirement to down certain content would have been impossible if I had kept all my friends. And we're still friends me and those players and they have accepted that they couldn't live up to certain content. So all is fine. They joined a guild that suited their needs.

[Deleted]

Some people left wow, some are just playing lfr. Raids are now more time demanding than they were before.

Dax75 you are playing 25man, that's the theory I have because otherwise wouldn't write such post.

They nerfed 10man because there were too many wipes in average, compared to last patches. In my opinion 25man is much more forgiving, while in 10man when someone screws up you are done, however when everybody does what they should it gets easier much quicker than on 25man, gear also makes difference quicker.

the theory has nothing to do with what format I raid or do not raid.

Yes and it is logical that the amount of wipes on average will increase if you have less really good people.
Or to put it simple if 2 25 guilds with equally good players both whipe 5 times on average the 25 man guilds whipe 5 times.
If 2 10 man guilds where one wipes 5 times and the other with less "skilled" people whipe 15 than on average the 10 man guilds wiped 10 times.

Also the only living 25 tend to be much better than the living 10 man guilds. on my old realm in the bottom 2/3 if not the bottom 80% there are no 25 mans it solely consist of 10 man groups.

Is it necessary a bad thing that there is a a wider spread in player skill in 10 man groups, which you think that i might imply. Of course not I think it is great that people get to experience normal mode raiding, now that normal mode raiding is a diminishing pass time.

And on a sidenote this whole one man dies we all die argument is getting old, the same is true in 25 man but because 10% is larger than 4% it ends up being some weird epeen contest of who is more important. Strangely enough back in DS the individual average required dps on ultraxion was higher in 25 than in 10, but that is another story.

---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 11:24 AM ----------

Hope this will be one of the last posts.

It's been said time and again that LFR is the biggest reason to pinpoint the answer to the question "Where have all the raiders gone?".

Yet people keep discussing this to death - and come up with all sorts of reasons as to why this is:

- the normal difficulty being too high
- the application process is too much work

These two small reasons come up every few pages and people go bonkers over this.

The funny thing is that the application process (extreme applications always have existed but are the minority of a minority of a minority, be real) has been there since Vanilla. Sure in Vanilla they weren't and couldn't be that elaborate. So if you encounter guilds that have application forms or require some effort before joining: DO NO JOIN THOSE GUILDS BUT SEARCH FOR A GUILD THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO DO THIS.

How hard is that? Well seeing as not a lot of raidingguilds still exist apart from the strong guilds, who were usually a tad more hardcore - there they have application forms. And rightly so. And why do these guilds still exist (for now) and not the "normal" guilds that before didn't require much of an application? Oh yes... LFR.
Suprise?

The other reason is the difficulty. Which is a logical explanation. But if that were really the case, wouldn't the official forums have people screaming for nerfs? Apart from a couple of people in this thread, I see no outcry for nerfs on these boards either. So is it really that hard? Or is it just that the guilds who are attempting normal modes, have recruited people with so little experience and LFR attitude, that yes they will have a hard time?

You can blame what you will however you will, LFR is the main culprit. Would we want to get rid of LFR? No - but this is an effect that LFR has done (amongst other things).

So you can discuss at length, but the elephant in the room will not go away.

Yes there we have our elephant. And we can't throw it away because it is so popular.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter that they exclude that person.

It does if you are designing content for everyone who plays the game.

They play with people they want to play with. It works the same in kindergarten. You be friends with people you like. And people work a lot like guilds. The older the person becomes the less friends he will have (less REAL or best-friends) - this is a lot like heroic raiders actually. They are "older" already (as the example) and have less time to spend on people who aren't likeminded. Ok perhaps not the best example. But this is somewhat conveying my point. I hope you agree.

Indeed I do. And that's where the raiders have gone - the best keep getting more selective, which removes would be raiders from the pool - and then the best demand harder content to match their level of expertise. Which removes even more raiders from the pool the next time around. This is what I mean by saying you are on a loop - eventually if you followed this line of behaviour to it's end conclusion, wow wouldn't be an MMO, it would be a 25 player game with the best 25 players in the world the only people able to kill anything.

When I was in a raiding guild (I started out as a casual friends guild), I didn't invite everytone that I was friends with. I invited the players that I was friends with + they had to be at a certain skilllevel. If they weren't up to that level they didn't get an invite. Or they could be invited but would not be allowed to raid. As time went on, apart from a few players, I replaced everyone of those players. The requirement to down certain content would have been impossible if I had kept all my friends. And we're still friends me and those players and they have accepted that they couldn't live up to certain content. So all is fine. They joined a guild that suited their needs.

You dropped your friends for purple pixels. And now you are defending harder content.

Theres a reason I run a social guild, and this is it.

[Deleted]

Join a guild when the tier is over. You'll get at least a 1-2 week trial, which you should breeze through if your skill is as high as you claim.

This tier isn't over until the next one is released, and why would it be easier to find a guild by then?

[Vaelorian]

It does if you are designing content for everyone who plays the game.

I am not designing anything - Blizzard is. I and everyone else plays the game their way. So yes I shut people I would not enjoy playing out

Indeed I do. And that's where the raiders have gone - the best keep getting more selective, which removes would be raiders from the pool - and then the best demand harder content to match their level of expertise. Which removes even more raiders from the pool the next time around. This is what I mean by saying you are on a loop - eventually if you followed this line of behaviour to it's end conclusion, wow wouldn't be an MMO, it would be a 25 player game with the best 25 players in the world the only people able to kill anything.

I am not saying it is healthy. But to blame the way people recruit is NOT the biggest reason people are not raiding anymore. LFR is you cannot deny that. I am not saying "some" people won't raid because of this. (can they not manage to make their own guild?) But it isn't the overwhelming reason.

You dropped your friends for purple pixels. And now you are defending harder content.

Theres a reason I run a social guild, and this is it.

I dropped my friends and they dropped me to play the game our own way. Some friends I had never had the intention of running heroic raids. You can put me on the spot as a "bad friend who rather plays a game for progress then play with his friends" but it works both ways aswell mate
It is natural that if your view of things do not match anymore with the group you are with, you should:
A. Change that groups view (unlikely)
B. Change your view (possible)
C. Leave that group to be with people who share your view (usually best option)

I do not think less of anyone that cannot raid hardcore heroic content. Nor do I think that people who do play heroic hard content are special.

[Deleted]

I am not designing anything - Blizzard is. I and everyone else plays the game their way. So yes I shut people I would not enjoy playing out

I am not saying it is healthy. But to blame the way people recruit is NOT the biggest reason people are not raiding anymore. LFR is you cannot deny that. I am not saying "some" people won't raid because of this. (can they not manage to make their own guild?) But it isn't the overwhelming reason.

LFR exists because of the exclusionary loop. LFR is a bandaid to cover the fact that good raiders won't associate with average or bad ones.

Raiders ditch people who can't keep up and then make forum posts wondering where the raiders went. Comical, really.

I dropped my friends and they dropped me to play the game our own way. Some friends I had never had the intention of running heroic raids. You can put me on the spot as a "bad friend who rather plays a game for progress then play with his friends" but it works both ways aswell mate
It is natural that if your view of things do not match anymore with the group you are with, you should:
A. Change that groups view (unlikely)
B. Change your view (possible)
C. Leave that group to be with people who share your view (usually best option)

I do not think less of anyone that cannot raid hardcore heroic content. Nor do I think that people who do play heroic hard content are special.

You prefered to get slightly better purple pixels than spend time with people you call your friends. Gotcha.

[namelessone]

I am not saying it is healthy. But to blame the way people recruit is NOT the biggest reason people are not raiding anymore. LFR is you cannot deny that. I am not saying "some" people won't raid because of this. (can they not manage to make their own guild?) But it isn't the overwhelming reason.

Yes it is. Yes it is the overwhelming reason, most people who raided before were never interested in "challenge" of raids to begin with, they did it because it was either that or quit. There was no other choice but to put up with overbearing guilds and power-tripping officers. You can't deny that.

---------- Post added 2013-04-17 at 10:08 AM ----------

You prefered to get slightly better purple pixels than spend time with people you call your friends. Gotcha.

My friends don't play WoW. I like it though, and I don't want to change my social circle to be able to play a game.

[Vaelorian]

Yes it is. Yes it is the overwhelming reason, most people who raided before were never interested in "challenge" of raids to begin with, they did it because it was either that or quit. There was no other choice but to put up with overbearing guilds and power-tripping officers. You can't deny that.

You sir misquoted me

I said that LFR is the biggest overwhelming reason why there so few normal raiders. I think you agree.
The difficulty that normal now poses is not the biggest reason(what I meant by that quote). As you said, they did not have a choice but to put up with certain stuff. Now they do not anymore. They go LFR

[geekx]

Let me suggest this

Number of guilds > Active Player Population

With every one person who gets butthurt by a guild starting a new guild there are fewer and fewer players to recruit, along with the guild perks ect ect.

There are also plenty of people who quit the game and new players in guilds of 5 ppl that do nothing and know nothing of raiding.

[Deleted]

You sir misquoted me

I said that LFR is the biggest overwhelming reason why there so few normal raiders. I think you agree.
The difficulty that normal now poses is not the biggest reason(what I meant by that quote). As you said, they did not have a choice but to put up with certain stuff. Now they do not anymore. They go LFR

Exactly backwards.

LFR exists because the ability of people to do normals decreases with every hike in difficulty. Blizzard still wants their sub money - hence LFR.

[Deleted]

Threads like these easily turn into LFR bashing while forgetting that raiding was dying before LFR was added to game.

In my opinion main problem is that there is lot more veteran raiders stopping raiding/quitting game than there is new players buying game and getting trained to raiding. These new players who start in this game now will have very hard time since most wow veteran have really bad attitude toward new players. I remember when guilds used to have active class leaders/guild officers who would be happy to train any new player to raiding, but thats just not happening now with most guilds being 10man who want and need players who know how to raid because that 1 new player in 10man raid can drag whole raid down lot more than it would be possible in 25man or 40man raids.

[Vankrys]

to be fair, new player taking the game are thought by the game through leveling and dungeon/raid finder, that most of the game content can be done alone, without the necessity of joining a guild (unless they want to do normal/heroic raiding). *

I don't agree that the decrease of raiding community is solely due to veteran player being jackasses, like the poster above me believe. I think it's a combinaison of things, but the main reason IMO is the ability to see the content without joining a community, even raid, you can queue solo.

[Firebert]

I think it's a combination of things, but the main reason IMO is the ability to see the content without joining a community, even a raid, you can queue solo.

CoD: Really successful, can see all the content solo.
LoL: Really successful, can see all the content solo.
Halo: Really successful, can see all the content solo.
WoW-pre-LFD: Really successful, can only see all the content with at least 40/25/10/5 friends.
WoW-pre-LFR: Really successful, can only see all the content with at least 40/25/10 friends.
WoW-post-LFR: Really successful, can see all the content solo.

LFD and LFR just brought the game in line with the rest of the industry.

[Ciddy]

For me personally, I just got burned out in Cataclysm. I raided regularly from early BC all the way to the end of Cataclysm. I'm sure the fact that my guild (the same guild I'd been with since early BC) died out has a lot to do with it. I took a break from WoW at the end of Cataclysm and just last night reactivated it. I'm enjoying the game, but I really have no desire to get back into raiding. I might fire up LFR a time or two just to dick around once I hit 90 and get the appropriate gear for it, but I think that's going to be the extent of it.

[Deleted]

Clearly I do.

It's like saying that raids are identical to exams. They're clearly not, as the former is a group action for fun whereas the latter is a solo test of knowledge.

He used it to illustrate effort and skill vs reward. If they were identical it wouldn't be an analogy.

[melodramocracy]

LFR exists because the ability of people to do normals decreases with every hike in difficulty. Blizzard still wants their sub money - hence LFR.

I'd say that LFR exists because they saw how widely used LFD was, and naturally wanted to extend it that sort of thing.

[Firebert]

I'd say that LFR exists because they saw how widely used LFD was, and naturally wanted to extend it that sort of thing.

So, LF Arenas, LF Normal Raids and LF Rated BGs coming up soon then?

[Grogo]

It was discussed at length in another thread, a large majority believed LFR is not raiding so lets not add LFR to this thread perhaps.

[Deleted]

The only DPS class any guild seems to want on my server (Stormreaver-EU) is moonkin and occassionally eleshaman. Trying to get into raids as a ret paladin is a nightmare.