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  1. #1281
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    It was discussed at length in another thread, a large majority believed LFR is not raiding so lets not add LFR to this thread perhaps.
    LFR is raiding in terms of size but not organization. LFR takes the challenge and thinking out of raiding which makes it more attractive to players that didnt like either the challenge or maybe just couldnt thought process as fast as others in their raid group.

    Gonna use my BC-Wotlk guild as an example. We were a 25 man guild. We had a small 10 man group that expanded to 25 by the very end of BC enough to kill Magg and Grull with almost a full guild group. Now i didnt know this then but my guild sucked. It was terrible. We had maybe 3 solid players at that time. On into Wotlk some of our players got better but alot were the stand in fire type, or come to the raid drunk or high type, or the play like your a 70 year old with arthritis type which we had in ulduar.

    Back when we did 25's i know about 7 of us that really loved raiding. We loved the challenge, we liked the planning, we liked the culture. Of those 7 i only know one that is still raiding like that today. Others are pvpers, some quit like me, and others have picked up LFR. All the others in that guild are LFR raiders today. They dont run "normals" of the current tier. They run old raids and run LFR. When DS was out they ran firelands. When firelands was out they ran BoT etc.

    This is where the "raiders" went. All the filler spots in 25 man guilds are choosing not to get called out every night, choosing not to stay up late, choosing not to feel like a dumbass because they cant recognize that their character is standing in a void zone, and are choosing to do LFR. This is my experience from an old guild and even the guys i hang out on vent with. They couldnt even kill 1 boss in the first MoP tier. I know that 2 of those guys were good raiders but they were playing with players that were Filler. 2 goods and 8 bads with zero leadership quickly stopped them from trying to raid. And guess what they did everyweek? LFR, LFR, LFR.
    LFR is giving bad players an out and good players dont have enough bads to fill up spots.

  2. #1282
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    It was discussed at length in another thread, a large MMOchamp majority (i.e. a tiny minority) believed LFR is not raiding.
    Fixed that for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    LFR is giving bad players an out and good players dont have enough bads to fill up spots.
    That's because there's far more "bad players" than "good players", because some guilds hate "bad players" and won't train them, and some "bad players" don't want to learn (which is fair enough, WoW's a game, not a school).
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  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    some "bad players" don't want to learn (which is fair enough, WoW's a game, not a school).
    That must be the most retarded thing I have read for a while. Are you implying the good players where born good?

    Keep it civil please.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2013-04-17 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #1284
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalukki View Post
    Are you implying the good players where born good?
    No, I'm saying that some "bad players" don't want to learn and become "good players".

    I don't see what's wrong with that.
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  5. #1285
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalukki View Post
    That must be the most retarded thing I have read for a while. Are you implying the good players where born good?
    I don't believe that was what he was implying. I read it as "the primary purpose of a game, unlike a school, isn't learning."
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #1286
    they stopped cause MOP / Cata-->Dragon Soul raiding is boring as hell.

  7. #1287
    Blizzard isnt making for raiders anymore, theyre making for casuals.

  8. #1288
    Quote Originally Posted by elalily View Post
    Blizzard isnt making for raiders anymore, theyre making for casuals.
    Funny, I had exactly the opposite feeling. Blizzard bends over backwards to snub the casuals, only grudgingly doing anything for them. Tiny numbers of favored-child elite players get attention all out of proportion to their number.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #1289
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    That's because there's far more "bad players" than "good players", because some guilds hate "bad players" and won't train them, and some "bad players" don't want to learn (which is fair enough, WoW's a game, not a school).
    Thats not always the case. Again my 25 man guild from Naxx-Ulduar was just filled with players that didnt know how to play their class, would stand in fire, whos job was to break ppl out of egg sacks but would instead keep attacking the spider queen. We had players who would go to the wrong groups they were assigned to in certain fights cuz they dont pay attention, and dont get me started on Thaddius, omg we killed him i think 3 times on 25 man because our guild was full of ppl who didnt know what to do when their charge changed or didnt change.

    But guess what, i was raid lead, did i kick them from the guild? nope. Did i personally call players out? not unless they were the only healer who couldnt dodge eyebeams on that stone faced guy in ulduar and left all the other healers with a heavy burden on a fight where already ppl couldnt stay out of beams, but other than that i didnt single players out. Did those players ever get better?

    HELL NO.

    Our MT who had no awareness what so ever(which is why he was never our OT unless the job was really simple) eventually stopped playing his tank after our guild broke up during TOC. From ToC till now hes been DPS, DPS, DPS, Why? because dps requires alot less situational awareness and if a dps does something stupid it may just mean that dps dies not the entire raid. Alot less responsibility which is why he's a really good player now...sorta.

    I know ppl from that guild who still had bad output healing and dps. I dont think its just good players wont teach bad, hell no one taught me, i had to teach myself. But alot comes down to awareness of surroundings/paying attention, knowing the fight, and the rest is knowing your class. Most the players from my guild were not aware of their surroundings and still aren't, Dont know their class although some do now, and never knew the fights and never will because they just didnt care enough.

  10. #1290
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Funny, I had exactly the opposite feeling. Blizzard bends over backwards to snub the casuals, only grudgingly doing anything for them. Tiny numbers of favored-child elite players get attention all out of proportion to their number.
    Seriously. All "casuals" get is pity gear, and they get to see content. In PVP, all they get is honor gear, and pretty much NO decent avenues for anything else. Acting like casual players are treated well shows that some people are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of touch with reality. Blizzard sure as hell is, that's for damned sure. They fucking take years to change things that are obviously not right. LFR, for example, should of been introduced much closer in time when LFD was. Raiding has never been popular, and they've kind of dug their own hole by catering to the niche for YEARS. It's a big reason WoW stopped growing back then. You could almost everything solo up to a point, then the community would systemically lock you out of doing anymore. They've even admitted as much. The majority would either, at level cap, start leveling alts, or just outright quit, because they had nothing to do. They sure as hell didn't have a game designed for them at the end, when they had one designed for them UNTIL the end. The design of the whole thing is at odds with itself.

  11. #1291
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Funny, I had exactly the opposite feeling. Blizzard bends over backwards to snub the casuals, only grudgingly doing anything for them. Tiny numbers of favored-child elite players get attention all out of proportion to their number.
    That's a big yuup.

    They of course hide behind Ghostcrawlers new favorite phrase "We'll support nearly any way to play. We can't promise your way is the most efficient." Which is just effectively paying lip service to the "We'll support nearly any way to play" part.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-18 at 12:35 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #1292
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Funny, I had exactly the opposite feeling. Blizzard bends over backwards to snub the casuals, only grudgingly doing anything for them. Tiny numbers of favored-child elite players get attention all out of proportion to their number.
    My guess here is thats because raiding in itself still has the endgame status and is still seen as the final goal for pve. If they were to just stop supporting it the direct loss would be minimal, but the psychological effects might be quite bad. The feeling of there beeing something that you still could do in the game, even if you don't, is quite priceless. Also the amount of effort they put into it is not that big anymore.. the artwork, models, scenery and basic mechanics needs to be present in LFR as well, the development time spend to tweak a few numbers and recycle spell effect 0xaf859bc9 for the one extra abolity they have in normal/heroic is nothing that annihilates the reward/effort ratio in their development cycle. Now one could argue that the LFR thing is not needed either because people don't really like raiding, but here applies the simple truth i guess, that lfr is a major part of the gear tread mill now, which defineatly effects a larger chunk of the playerbase than raiders in it self.

  13. #1293
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's a big yuup.

    They of course hide behind Ghostcrawlers new favorite phrase "We'll support nearly any way to play. We can't promise your way is the most efficient." Which is just effectively paying lip service to the "We'll support nearly any way to play" part.
    And yet Ghostcrawler still has a job. Why hasn't he been replaced yet if the game lost so many subs during his tenure?

  14. #1294
    (normal) raiding is not dying. I don't know why people would think this is the case.

  15. #1295
    Quote Originally Posted by Derathenus View Post
    (normal) raiding is not dying. I don't know why people would think this is the case.

    Because normal raid participation is freefalling compared to previous Xpac

  16. #1296
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Exactly backwards.

    LFR exists because the ability of people to do normals decreases with every hike in difficulty. Blizzard still wants their sub money - hence LFR.
    I would say LFR exist because with the merger of the 10 and 25 man lockout and the subsequent increase in difficulty in 10 man, many guilds who used to raid in wrath where left without any raiding content.
    So yea some 10 man raiders wanted to be special snowflakes and wanted the same gear as 25 man raiders and bamm a lot of other wrath raiders can't cope with the difficulty any more.
    So yes LFR was a bandaid but it does also give a loot pinata event to many new people who get to smash the pinata till it drops loot and see the socalled content.

    So yes I blame the 10 and 25 man shared lockout for starting this whole mess of raiders leaving.
    Back in the day I didn't mind that 10 man normal mode was forgiving, I did some with alts for fun but did 25 man with my main.
    And 10 man raids and 25 man pugs where good places to get to learn people and maybe find people to recruit. It was also a nice stepping stone for new players that they could try raiding in the more intimate easier 10 man setting.

    And well now a days where you have a lot of mandatory things to do in order to be best prepared to raid (and that includes doing LFR for upgrades), Normal mode raiding has become rather time intensive and does not give that much in return. In an average guild you've already "seen" 50% of the bosses and killed them in LFR before you ever reach them in normal mode.

    So what does that bring you well if you wanted to see the content you might as well just go into LFR and see it.

    In the end one does have to speculate, when the LFR supporters say that only LFR make raiding financially viable, then why did they do raiding in the first place before didn't stop them before. And second if the normal and heroic raid participation keeps falling the way that it does will we reach a point where blizzard says nobody does normal or heroic raiding we will stop supporting it and only release "raids" as LFR.
    Last edited by mmoc30cfcfeceb; 2013-04-18 at 09:55 AM.

  17. #1297
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    And yet Ghostcrawler still has a job. Why hasn't he been replaced yet if the game lost so many subs during his tenure?
    Who said it was GC's fault? He's the game systems lead, not the head honcho.

    As for lack of firing over millions of sub losses (and that is a good question to wonder about!): either the person responsible is Morhaime (and he won't fire himself), or the decisionmaking structure is such that no one person was directly responsible (in which case Morhaime is again responsible, if indirectly.)
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #1298
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Who said it was GC's fault? He's the game systems lead, not the head honcho.

    As for lack of firing over millions of sub losses (and that is a good question to wonder about!): either the person responsible is Morhaime (and he won't fire himself), or the decisionmaking structure is such that no one person was directly responsible (in which case Morhaime is again responsible, if indirectly.)
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.

  19. #1299
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.
    The other reason might be that sub losses have never changed, but sub recruitment has cratered. GC wouldn't be responsible for that, the marketing team would be. And even then, wows age etc is against it when it comes to getting new guys and gals.

  20. #1300
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.
    The clause (actually, a section of the corporate bylaws) have made me wonder about the management structure of Blizzard.

    The bylaws require that the Activision-Blizzard CEO (Kotick) put together an annual plan, which the board signs off on. Changes to this plan that affect Blizzard have to get written approval by the board.

    This insulates Blizzard from meddling, but I wonder if it also makes them less nimble.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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