Why do heroic raiders get to do the fights non-linear?

[Nekovivie]

Comparing apples to thermonuclear warheads doesn't really work.

Both are lethal weapons in the right hands.

[Acideyeliner]

Can anyone give me a good reason why they can do this? Looking at WoWprogress it's quite obvious that the most common heroic progression path is very non-linear. Why is it okay for heroic raiders to do stuff non-linear and normal raiders have to do each boss to get to the next?

They still kill the bosses themselves in order. Changing the difficulty doesn't matter at all. You don't even have an option for doing them in order on normal...

Different bosses are easier for some guilds. Some guilds have strong dps but not very good add control, others are the opposite. So they work with what they can manage until gear/experience allows them to kill new bosses.

[shise]

Can anyone give me a good reason why they can do this? Looking at WoWprogress it's quite obvious that the most common heroic progression path is very non-linear. Why is it okay for heroic raiders to do stuff non-linear and normal raiders have to do each boss to get to the next?

You are wrong m8, we have to do all lineal to unlock HC's, then you can make do it as you wish.

[iDrunkenheal]

So you got no problem with me toggling LFR mode for normals for the bosses we can quite get? I hear Twins and Lei Shen is pretty easy on 10 man normal. I'd like to go get some of that loot maybe head back to Dumuru later

Couldn't careless. I cleared normals week 1. Twins is really easy. Lei shen is easy once you know the strat.

[Monkeyofcode]

Firstly they have done it linearly already on normal to unlock heroic.

What does it matter to you? the way you phrase the question implies you aren't a heroic raider so it doesn't effect you.

[Mad_Murdock]

Nevermind the fact bosses in TBC were, mechanically, a hell of a lot easier than bosses are now. Maximising gear-yield by picking and choosing bosses can help get over a very tight enrage. There's also the "morale" factor; by killing some bosses on heroic, getting stuck on one later on isn't as frustrating (because you've been progressing up until that point).

Point taken, I'll admit I was thinking more tier levels and not instance level.

Though BC having mechanically easier fights doesn't really make a difference, they were hard for their time. Gruulz seems like a pretty easy fight even compared to most of today's fights, but that's where I spent most of TBC until I found a better guild after the 30% nerf.

Firstly they have done it linearly already on normal to unlock heroic.

What does it matter to you? the way you phrase the question implies you aren't a heroic raider so it doesn't effect you.

Outside of the starting Xpac tier, doing normal modes in Heroic gear isn't quiet the same as doing normal modes in normal mode gear. It is like saying, I've done it in LFR, so I should be able to switch back an forth.

What is funny, is to hear heroic raiders say "what does it matter to you?' Yet, we saw endless complaining from Heroic raiders at the end of ICC and Dragon Soul over the baddies getting the 30% buff. The same question could be asked, why does it matter to you what normal raiders do 6-8 months later?

And for the record, it doesn't really matter to me, other than I think it's odd to hear heroic raiders complain about easy content and then use easy content to gear up and skip bosses instead of staying stuck.

[Aceshigh]

You keep saying "Normal mode raiders do it on LFR before they do it on normal mode". While this might be true, that is a choice they make, normal mode raiding is a requirement for heroic mode raiding. LFR is not a requirement for normal mods.

[Deleted]

So you got no problem with me toggling LFR mode for normals for the bosses we can quite get? I hear Twins and Lei Shen is pretty easy on 10 man normal. I'd like to go get some of that loot maybe head back to Dumuru later.

If you are struggling on durumun you'll have way bigger issues on lei shen, neither fight have any significant dps/healing requirements and lei shen simply has a bit more mechanics to deal with appropriately. There are some exceptions but with the recent changes to 10 man mode it's pretty much a gradual increase in the difficulty up to lei shen, while this is very far from the case in hc mode, so even if you could skip you'd gain relatively little.

[clevin]

Why? What do we gain other then satisfying your dislike of skipping? This would mean that raiders that can't full clear most of the heroic instance in a week will have to farm gear in normal for a few weeks and then start progressing. It would also even more separate those with more time from those with more skill. More time being > skill.

Go read the massive whining about the 10 man nerfs in that silly thread. There, normal mode raiders who are struggling on Horridon, Coucnil or Tortos are being told "If you can't get past those, go back and farm T14 gear." Guess what? That's the same argument you're rejecting, that if they can't get past a boss in heroic they should go farm normal for more gear. Sorry people, but if the argument works in one setting, it works in the other. If the objection to farming T15N is that 'we cleared it once and it's borrrrring' or some such, then the people making that argument don't get to reject it when normal mode raiders say "We cleared T14, we don't want to have to farm it, it's boring."

Now, personally, I don't care about switching difficulties on bosses. ICC did that. So did Ulduar. And i"m not raiding heroic so it doesn't affect me. But, sorry H raiders, you have to be consistent - if farming prior difficulties is onerous and boring for you, you can't make the arguments you're making on the normal mode nerfs and farming T14.

[Hyve]

Because there isn't an Easy Mode of raiding (Excluding LFR, of course).

Heroic Mode can only be done once you've done that linear path, so they've experienced that already. Heroic Mode however is an option, Normal Mode is a requirement.

[Monkeyofcode]

Point taken, I'll admit I was thinking more tier levels and not instance level.

Though BC having mechanically easier fights doesn't really make a difference, they were hard for their time. Gruulz seems like a pretty easy fight even compared to most of today's fights, but that's where I spent most of TBC until I found a better guild after the 30% nerf.



Outside of the starting Xpac tier, doing normal modes in Heroic gear isn't quiet the same as doing normal modes in normal mode gear. It is like saying, I've done it in LFR, so I should be able to switch back an forth.

What is funny, is to hear heroic raiders say "what does it matter to you?' Yet, we saw endless complaining from Heroic raiders at the end of ICC and Dragon Soul over the baddies getting the 30% buff. The same question could be asked, why does it matter to you what normal raiders do 6-8 months later?

And for the record, it doesn't really matter to me, other than I think it's odd to hear heroic raiders complain about easy content and then use easy content to gear up and skip bosses instead of staying stuck.

Some heroic raiders care some don't. I'm in the latter category. My point is that neither "group/category" should care what the other does. Normal raiders who complain about heroic raiders and heroic raiders who complain about normal raiders are the same thing and should both just raid and move along.

[Mad_Murdock]

If you are struggling on durumun you'll have way bigger issues on lei shen, neither fight have any significant dps/healing requirements and lei shen simply has a bit more mechanics to deal with appropriately. There are some exceptions but with the recent changes to 10 man mode it's pretty much a gradual increase in the difficulty up to lei shen, while this is very far from the case in hc mode, so even if you could skip you'd gain relatively little.

I was using that as an example, though every guild has different struggles with different bosses. I'm sure many of a normal mode raider would have loved to be able to skip Garalon. which we found harder than Windlord. We and several other guilds found Will of Emp easier than Elegon and while it's more of an attutnement issue, I'm sure many normal raiders would have loved to have gotten an easier Empress to get to TOES to farm that place and head back to Empress.

It would be nice if Normal mode raiders got a better deal then "Go run LFR or work on last tiers heroics", which is basically the only option we have to gear up. I personally would prefer not to run LFR , but if we get stuck and LFR as some upgrades, that's my option. The only place it would help is on a fight like Tortas. This week we had 3 melee and that fight is just near impossible for us with 3 melee. We were just about to call it, when one of the ranged showed up. It would have been nice to have a means to easy mode past that boss, because Mega and Ji-Kun doesn't matter if you're melee heavy.

Some heroic raiders care some don't. I'm in the latter category. My point is that neither "group/category" should care what the other does. Normal raiders who complain about heroic raiders and heroic raiders who complain about normal raiders are the same thing and should both just raid and move along.

It would be thrilling if everyone shared a similar attitude. Personally, I would like to have something similar for normal modes rather than just nerfs to normal modes. In some cases, it may not be enough, but having an option wouldn't be horrible

[Dragonala]

The fights are still linear. Can't kill horridon without killing Jin rokh. The only difference is difficulty level, which doesn't change wich order you do the fights in.

Everyone gets that "benefit"

Example #1 killing Tortos heroic before Horridon heroic

Example #2 killing lfr Lei shen before killing Quan on normal.

The same reason normal mode raiders get to do example #2 is the same reason heroic raiders get to do example #1

[kosechi]

The point (that Heroic raiders point out) is back in the good ol' days of BC, is that Heroic mode was the normal mode. You either killed the bosses or you didn't

there was no such thing as 'heroic raiders' in bc. that concept came in hindsight. you were only raiders. sunwell wasn't a 'heroic raid' it was just a raid. mechanically it wasn't even that much harder than BT, it was just very over tuned in terms of the numbers people were capable of producing with the gear that was available.


if you really want to get on about 'heroic raiders' skipping around on heroic modes, does your swap people in and out depending on what they need off bosses and whether their class/spec has cooldowns or abilities that are particularly suited for the boss? mine does. what if i come in for jin'rohk and horridon, sit out till primordius, sit out on iron qon and then come in for consorts and lei shen. normal mode raiders do this, 10 man raiders do this, heroic raiders do this.

you either kill the boss or you don't kill the boss. you can't progress to the next one unless you kill the one in before it. it the instance remains linear if you kill things on heroic or not.

[fangless]

Answer: Because that's just how the instance mechanics work?

I doubt there's some conspiracy behind the scenes from Blizzard to screw over normal raids.

[Hottie4Hire]

Because people like it better. That's why. There is no other explanation.

[clevin]

Some heroic raiders care some don't. I'm in the latter category. My point is that neither "group/category" should care what the other does. Normal raiders who complain about heroic raiders and heroic raiders who complain about normal raiders are the same thing and should both just raid and move along.

Again, go read the whining and posturing in the thread talking about the nerfs on 10 man normal. You might not care, but a lot of progression raiders don't hesitate to tell less progressed raiders to go farm earlier content. All I ask is that if they make that argument, explain to me why it's not hypocritical to be fine with mode switching in heroics. If heroic raids were all or nothing (to get to a later heroic boss you have to kill all of the previous bosses on heroic) they'd have to live by the same rules - push through the harder bosses or farm earlier, easier content.

Or, as you say, realize that the two groups are different and just live and let live.

[Venziir]

This raid has a story?
I thought it was just "We gonna go kill the Thunder dude. Oh crap, a turtle, killitbang!"

As long as the Lei Shen is last the story seems pretty much satisfied.

Of course it has a story, don't be that guy....

[Dasani]

This sounds to me like one of those guys that was stuck on horridon and unable to get him down until he was nerfed into the ground, then killed horridon and possibly council too since that fight is a joke anyway and also nerfed further, then got stuck on tortos and is now angry that he has hit a brick wall again and can't progress.

Meanwhile heroic raiders have already done the entire instance in the exact same forced linear way, and are now working on hard modes which require you to also do the instance in a linear way except you have the option to toggle the difficulty up a notch at any boss you encounter on the path.

There is nothing wrong with the system, people like the OP just get bent out of shape because they can't progress and look for anything to blame for it and try to make others suffer.

[morfraen]

op = bad troll, or everything that is wrong with WoW and his generation.