What do you think of Hiroshima Bombings II?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

And on the subject of NK's madman of a ruler - I hope he's swiftly assassinated, and that political system completely overthrown so the people he rules over can actually have a choice as to the actions of their country (or at least the illusion of choice).

Assassinating Kim Jong Un would make him a martyr. Sometimes people gain influence when they die, especially when they are assassinated or executed. It is in everybody's interest (except maybe the North Koreans themselves) for Kim Jong Un to stay in power.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but if you start a war, and lose it, you don't get to make stipulations for surrender...

Negotiation have always been part of a surrender.... to save life of all involved. It might not always been fair but you did negotiate. WW1 change the game rules to unconditional surrender.

[rasako]

The bomb wasn't needed to make Germany surrender, being stuck between 2 fronts and having their capital city conquered did the trick just fine

And yes, I think Japan would have surrendered without the bombs, the negotiations would have been a much better way of doing things, dropping the bombs was an important cause of the Cold War.

sorry to burst your bubble captain jack ass, but Japan is a country that would fight tooth and nail until the last japanese soldier was cold and dead on the ground, their leaders may have surrendered but we were still WEEDING their army out of the surrounding islands for awhile afterwards, you're just some biased US hating bigot who thinks he is more fit to make decisions than the president of the time, and do you really think, if the united states was SO horrible, we would SANCTION AND BAN THE USE OF ALL NUCLEAR WEAPONS FROM THAT POINT ON? really?

Infracted: Please don not insult other users

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

One positive aspect of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs has been that nobody has since dropped a nuclear bomb as an act of war.

[rasako]

Negotiation have always been part of a surrender.... to save life of all involved. It might not always been fair but you did negotiate. WW1 change the game rules to unconditional surrender.

I don't remember Attilla the Hun ever even giving his enemieis (women, children, men, all slaughtered by his hand) a chance to surrender. War is not black and white like all of you childish tools seem to think, there are many TOUGH decisions that must be made and the United States has taken THOUSANDS of steps in stopping pointless brutality and is the defending force of over 60 OTHER countries

[Åmbulance]

One positive aspect of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs has been that nobody has since dropped a nuclear bomb as an act of war.

This what i have ALWAYS wondered, say we didn't drop the bombs. What would have the Cold War actually become.

[Hyve]

This what i have ALWAYS wondered, say we didn't drop the bombs. What would have the Cold War actually become.

Most likely, it would've kicked off. Don't forget, that during the Cold War, there was times where they genuinely believed that the button was about to pressed! I think one of the factors that prevented both sides, was the knowledge of what had happened last time these devices were used!

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

This what i have ALWAYS wondered, say we didn't drop the bombs. What would have the Cold War actually become.

I think the world would probably have ended between 14 October and 28 October 1962.

[Deleted]

All nations have permanent dark stains on their history, the United Kingdom has our fair share of horrific acts.

The one problem that the United States suffers from is their chest thumping. This over-the-top constant screaming about what a great nation you are. I'm not starting an argument, just saying, from what I have seen and heard, the world is just sick of the attitude the U.S. has, not its past.

^^this.

Everyone knows victors get to write the history books.

But even the British, who created the greatest empire the world has ever seen and likely ever will again, well before the advent of the Internet and therefore easy dissemination of information, acknowledged and apologized for most of the atrocities they committed in their interests.

The US is startling for just how much they refuse to realize the damage they have caused and continue to cause (and by they I mean the people themselves, not just the administration which is normally the only the part of a country that tries to hide its past shames due to current interests).

As for Korea starting a nuclear war, especially with its immediate neighbor, that's a joke that's not worth even considering, imo. They know from geography alone that this would be guaranteed mutual destruction. They also know starting such a war with anyone else would mean their total destruction. This is not to say it could never ever happen, but even if it did, the situation would resolve itself fast.

Besides, the current stalemate situation suits all parties just fine, including the US, the North Korean elite, the South Korean government, China, Russia and Japan.

[Deleted]

Nope, we just obliterated their country by more conventional means, it might as well been nuked from all the destruction from the carpet bombing.

Then why where nukes necesary?

The bombing was needed to give good reason to those that did surrender, to put down their weapons. If the bombs never dropped, I'm sure tens of thousands more, would've kept fighting!

I'm going to keep telling you this, you're not sure, you are assuming.

It's easy to be the good guy when your responsibilities are nothing while pointing and calling the other criminal when his responsibilities are grand.

I personally had nothing to do with it, and no US citizen alive today has nothing to do with nukes dropped 3/4 of a century ago. Instead of feeling offended people should learn from mistakes made in history (wich most people, fortunatly, did).

[Badpaladin]

this is the DUMBEST post I've EVER read, the United states stayed well AWAY from World War II and it's issues because we wanted NOTHING to do with it, and on top of that, the most internally opposed!?! nowhere CLOSE to opposed as the Vietnam conflict was. Get your facts straight before you start bashing entire nations of people when you have no fucking idea what you're even talking about, that's disgustingly offensive to any and all involved for you to even PRETEND to know what you're talking about

Unfortunately you seem to be suffering from misconceptions. I implore you to read about the history of the war and US actions from the mid-to-late 1930's until the end of WWII.

[Deleted]

All nations have permanent dark stains on their history, the United Kingdom has our fair share of horrific acts.

The one problem that the United States suffers from is their chest thumping. This over-the-top constant screaming about what a great nation you are. I'm not starting an argument, just saying, from what I have seen and heard, the world is just sick of the attitude the U.S. has, not its past.

I can agree with this.

[Nirawen]

This what i have ALWAYS wondered, say we didn't drop the bombs. What would have the Cold War actually become.

Well the power of the bombs was still known, the Tsar Bomba being detonated contributed to the Cuban missile crisis being resolved as much as anything else.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Not to mention we had broken the Japanese code and intercepted nearly all their messages, including those heavily suggesting unconditional surrender, before we even dropped the first bomb.

Wasn't the US also winning ground and took over most of the islands and such in the Pacific Ocean at the end of the war? Would it not have been possible for the US to cut off all supply lines for Japan so they had no choice but to surrender?

[IIamaKing]

I think Japan should have surrendered after the first bomb, then the second would not have happened.

[Darkrulerxxx]

Unfortunately you seem to be suffering from misconceptions. I implore you to read about the history of the war and US actions from the mid-to-late 1930's until the end of WWII.

if you read as you implore Rasako to do so, It is also stated that the rumors of Japan's surrender was unconfirmed and most likely false due to the fact that they wanted to press on the war to keep Japan's emperor in power. "Saying" that japan wanted to surrender doesn't mean they were going to surrender. There was a lot of murkiness to both sides, But it is the way it is, and i'm glad that it DID end the war.

[Kitterfly]

All nations have permanent dark stains on their history, the United Kingdom has our fair share of horrific acts.

The one problem that the United States suffers from is their chest thumping. This over-the-top constant screaming about what a great nation you are. I'm not starting an argument, just saying, from what I have seen and heard, the world is just sick of the attitude the U.S. has, not its past.

We've essentially given you stability and peace from your neighboring nations.

You don't think the people deserve to "thump their chest"? That was bought with the blood of their children, brothers, cousins, fathers. This world is what it is because of the United States, have no delusions on that one my friend. So if you enjoy your life as it is, if you feel secure, you should give us a proper nod of respect.

Now don't get me wrong, I am no fan of militarism. I don't think any good can come out of it in the long run. World War II was a necessity and beyond that, I question the validity of our actions to some degree or another. Also, it is time to have the rest of the world take care of its own problems. We basically provide welfare military support to burgeoning allies that should be able to develop their own defenses.

I don't want to always be known for our military prowess and now is a good time to rein things back and work towards more diplomatic relations.

As for the subject of nuking Japan, I don't think there was any true alternative that didn't involve an ungodly amount of death to American soldiers. Not only that but we also had Russia rampaging through China--we had to scare them, to halt them, and show our power to what would likely be a future foe.

[Nathreim]

They were ready to surrender, this is not up for debate.

Really well you must have never heard of the Kyūjō Incident. The Military wasn't happy with the idea of surrender they tried to stage a coup to continue the war to the end even after the bombing. A group of officers attempted and almost succeeded to capture the Emperor and kill or capture his cabinet. The managed to take the palace, the Emperor, and capture or kill several cabinet members but Tatsuhiko Takashima chief of staff the Eastern District army stopped them he rather be disgraced in defeat than betray his Emperor. Afterward the War Minister Korechika Anami committed suicide his dieing message apologizing for committing a crime against the Emperor which most historians agree was involvement in the coup.

[Seranthor]

Those 2 words lead me to believe that your argument is a joke.

I also highlited 'war crimes' because I think its funny (you know because America has gotten away with countless of war crimes after WWII)

No hard feelings to the US, I just wanted to point out that their hands are covered with blood aswell.

Funny you'd say that... its estimated that 200,000 died in the bombings... its estimated that 200,000 to 500,000 US troops would have died in the invasion and 3 to 5 MILLION Japanese civilians... so I'll ask you... which was the choice that saved the most lives?

[ringpriest]

I disapprove of the atomic bombings on Japan and I'm disgraced that the country I live in committed those atrocities. The idea that it was the "best thing to do" is propoganda.

Not to mention we had broken the Japanese code and intercepted nearly all their messages, including those heavily suggesting unconditional surrender, before we even dropped the first bomb.

While I generally agree that Japan was heading towards a surrender when the bombs were dropped, after a lot of reading on the subject, I'm not convinced the bombs were used in bad faith, or for any other reason than to force a Japanese surrender. The Allies issued the Potsdam Declaration on July 26, 1945, calling for the Japanese to surrender. It seems to be a tough but fair set of terms. Notably, it does not demand complete unconditional surrender, but rather only, "the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces". The Emperor was not threatened.

On July 28, the Japanese Prime Minister Suzuki held a press conference and stated,

I consider the Joint Proclamation a rehash of the Declaration at the Cairo Conference. As for the Government, it does not attach any important value to it at all. The only thing to do is just kill it with silence (mokusatsu). We will do nothing but press on to the bitter end to bring about a successful completion of the war.

What was any Allied commander supposed to do after that? Invade, causing huge casualties on both sides? Blockade, like MacArthur wanted, literally starving the Japanese civilian population to death? Bomb conventionally, causing a huge death toll? Sure, in retrospect it's now easy to say that Japan was on the verge of surrender, but to those in charge at the time, it didn't look like it. When you've threatened a nation with, "prompt and utter destruction" if they don't surrender and end the aggressive war they started, and their government responds by giving you the diplomatic equivalent of the finger, you don't have to be a war criminal to push on for a swift (if destructive) end to the conflict. Additionally, no one involved in making the decision truly understood the full impact of radiation and fallout at the time.

There are other areas of WWII and afterward where the U.S. has been hypocritical (from post-9/11 waterboarding to one-sided war crimes trials), but while the bombing was horrific, I think it was as good a decision as could be made at the time. Certainly in retrospect, no one would have ordered it, but President Truman and those advising him did not have the luxury of hindsight, nor did they live in the same world that we do today. Examining why the decision was made, and how it could have been made differently can be informative and educational, but trying to morally judge it at this remove is becoming like trying to morally judge the Punic Wars.