New Hostess owners will refuse to hire union workers

[Cthulhu 2020]

How does the argument fall apart by you giving examples of violation of liberty? I am not stating that roads, parks etc are a bad thing, but I am saying that taking money from one citizen and supplying phones etc to another with it is a violation of liberty.

That's basically what subsidized or single payer healthcare is, using tax money to pay for it. All you're really saying is that taking money from people to pay for something else is a violation of liberty, so therefor shouldn't every single thing that's subsidized or managed by the US or state govt in some way be a violation of liberty? By that argument we should return the govt and our living standards back to the days of the 1800s.

People can't really explain why it's bad, just that it is bad. So much of the right wing rhetoric tells people what to hate, not why to hate it. Other than of course "PAYING FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF IS BAD!"

[Laize]

If you look at Hostess's long line of incredibly bad business decisions, it becomes extremely obvious why unions have almost nothing to do their bankruptcy, and really are just a scapegoat.

It seems to me the only bad business decision they made that was 100% their fault was not investing millions of dollars to lobby Congress to subsidize their business model like practically every other union business in the US.

At least that's the only obvious one.

[theredviola]

I do not think you understand that many of us who do not like unions agree that at one point and time unions were a good thing. What most people fail to understand is how corrupt many have become.

i enjoy watching people blindly support something that stopped being relevant in most cases decades ago. yes, unionization is why we aren't all working in horrible conditions. i hate to break it to you though, that was done by unions in generations passed. most unions in their current state do things like put ambitious people on a wait list while a drug addict gets to the head of the line because his father is a union rep.

Fair enough. Indeed, too many unions are corrupt today. However, saying I "blindly support" them is too broad of a statement. Before I joined both unions I am a member of today, I sat back and watched other professionals in my fields and saw how they interacted. The worst I saw was some internal bickering over the presidential elections. Here it is over 2 years later, and no one mentions it because it didn't matter. I've heard nothing but good things about our unions and after realizing that any of the successful professionals in my fields (teaching and professional music) are members of the union, I joined. In my state, the unions have helped people who were wrongly fired from penalty and got their jobs back. The unions have helped move out a few of the wrong people in power.

So, yes, I do trust unions. But not blindly.

[Ozymandius]

That's basically what subsidized or single payer healthcare is, using tax money to pay for it. All you're really saying is that taking money from people to pay for something else is a violation of liberty, so therefor shouldn't every single thing that's subsidized or managed by the US or state govt in some way be a violation of liberty? By that argument we should return the govt and our living standards back to the days of the 1800s.

People can't really explain why it's bad, just that it is bad. So much of the right wing rhetoric tells people what to hate, not why to hate it.

I know exactly why it is bad. It is bad because when you take something from one person or group in order to give it to another person or group, you lower the incentive for both groups. The person being taken from does not want to work as hard because he is having things taken from him without having a say in the matter and the groups being given to do not see any reason to work harder if they are being given the things they want. I do not hate, I fail to understand why some people believe that theft by the government should be looked upon as a good thing and when people stand up and say enough is enough, we are the ones called names and treated like the problem. I would say 60-75% of what the Federal Government does is in violation of the Constitution and that it has become such a part of everyone's everyday life that you accept it as normal. It should not be.

[Laize]

You've made A LOT of posts saying "well yeah, they did this, and they did that, and they did this, and they did that" and you basically kind of throughout the thread have touched on all of their extremely shitty management points, then end every post with "but it's still the union's fault!"

Because union labor is fucking expensive as hell. And when you try to cut costs to remain competitive they flip their shit. The union agreed to at LEAST $100 million in cost cuts... and then when they pay their executives more the unions lost their shit completely. It was a dick move to ask their workers to accept less money and then give themselves more... but the fact is that the $3 million increase in executive compensation was pennies compared to the amount paid to unions.

[Wells]

That's awesome! Free market wins over communism. Liberal capitalism-haters will certainly be enraged by this and whenever they're mad it means America is doing the right thing. I'd love to see all unions abolished and union leadership jailed on RICO charges.

Why do you hate freedom of association so much?

[Maleficus]

That's basically what subsidized or single payer healthcare is, using tax money to pay for it. All you're really saying is that taking money from people to pay for something else is a violation of liberty, so therefor shouldn't every single thing that's subsidized or managed by the US or state govt in some way be a violation of liberty? By that argument we should return the govt and our living standards back to the days of the 1800s.

People can't really explain why it's bad, just that it is bad. So much of the right wing rhetoric tells people what to hate, not why to hate it. Other than of course "PAYING FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S STUFF IS BAD!"

For those that don't understand why the government taking from person A and giving to person B is bad, well...I'm not sure how that can be explained any further, just seems like common sense. If i decide to do this on my own, it's illegal. If the gubmint does it under the guise of "fairness" then we should be cool with it. Unless of course you fall into the group of people that don't believe in private property.

Regarding the bolded - I'm so glad the left doesn't engage in stuff like that.

[Wells]

I know exactly why it is bad. It is bad because when you take something from one person or group in order to give it to another person or group, you lower the incentive for both groups. The person being taken from does not want to work as hard because he is having things taken from him without having a say in the matter and the groups being given to do not see any reason to work harder if they are being given the things they want. I do not hate, I fail to understand why some people believe that theft by the government should be looked upon as a good thing and when people stand up and say enough is enough, we are the ones called names and treated like the problem. I would say 60-75% of what the Federal Government does is in violation of the Constitution and that it has become such a part of everyone's everyday life that you accept it as normal. It should not be.

Taxes aren't theft. They're the cost of living in a nice modern society.

[Monoxyde]

Fair enough. Indeed, too many unions are corrupt today. However, saying I "blindly support" them is too broad of a statement. Before I joined both unions I am a member of today, I sat back and watched other professionals in my fields and saw how they interacted. The worst I saw was some internal bickering over the presidential elections. Here it is over 2 years later, and no one mentions it because it didn't matter. I've heard nothing but good things about our unions and after realizing that any of the successful professionals in my fields (teaching and professional music) are members of the union, I joined. In my state, the unions have helped people who were wrongly fired from penalty and got their jobs back. The unions have helped move out a few of the wrong people in power.

So, yes, I do trust unions. But not blindly.

how is it any broader a statement than yours saying that the people in this thread who don't support unions have no idea what unionization has done for us?

[Cthulhu 2020]

It seems to me the only bad business decision they made that was 100% their fault was not investing millions of dollars to lobby Congress to subsidize their business model like practically every other union business in the US.

At least that's the only obvious one.

Yeah, the whole seeing everyone else getting corporate payouts and thinking that greasing a few pockets like everyone else would work was one of their mistakes.

Their rapid expansion and buying spree, as well as their soon thereafter rapid selling spree and downsizing, extreme pay hikes for executives, 6 CEO turnover since they first started having financial problems, outdated equipment that it refused to upgrade (despite you know, the unions giving BACK $110m for them to do so), and then of course, when everyone knew what was happening, all the ways in which they tried to milk the company for everything it had when they knew it was failing.

But still, it's the union's fault! /shakes fist

[Ozymandius]

Taxes aren't theft. They're the cost of living in a nice modern society.

If they were going to supply public works such as Roads, Power etc as pointed out by Decklan, I can understand the necessity for the evil. I think those projects should be voted in by the public and approved . When they are being used to give hand out to special interest groups etc, that is the problem.

[theredviola]

how is it any broader a statement than yours saying that the people in this thread who don't support unions have no idea what unionization has done for us?

Because it's too easy to just jump on a band wagon and rail against something (as most internet forums prove).

[Fugus]

Because union labor is fucking expensive as hell. And when you try to cut costs to remain competitive they flip their shit. The union agreed to at LEAST $100 million in cost cuts... and then when they pay their executives more the unions lost their shit completely. It was a dick move to ask their workers to accept less money and then give themselves more... but the fact is that the $3 million increase in executive compensation was pennies compared to the amount paid to unions.

That dick move was a telling point too. After that dick move, they asked for even more concessions from them while not taking any themselves. If the Union has agreed to more cuts they top would have possibly taken that difference as well. It was the management who fucked up and took out the company, the union just refused to allow them to dick over their employees even more on the way down. To be honest, I think by that point the executives had already decided the company was going to die and just wanted to give the unions the middle finger and pocket as much as they could personally on the way out.

But blaming the unions for it just isn't accurate, the unions had literally zero to do with the company failing and is just a scapegoat for piss poor management making bad decisions for years upon years. Even if they labor wasn't union and worked for Chinese wages, the company would still only had a little time left due to the managements decisions.

[Laize]

Why do you hate freedom of association so much?

No one hates freedom of association more than people who oppose RTW.

Unless of course you want to count "Freedom to quit a union shop".

[Wells]

If they were going to supply public works such as Roads, Power etc as pointed out by Decklan, I can understand the necessity for the evil. I think those projects should be voted in by the public and approved . When they are being used to give hand out to special interest groups etc, that is the problem.

Its not evil. Its how you maintain a decent place to live. If you don't want to pay the costs of living in America no one is making you stay.

They are voted by the public. We elect the people who make those decisions. If you want fewer roads vote for someone who wants fewer roads.

[Cthulhu 2020]

For those that don't understand why the government taking from person A and giving to person B is bad, well...I'm not sure how that can be explained any further, just seems like common sense. If i decide to do this on my own, it's illegal. If the gubmint does it under the guise of "fairness" then we should be cool with it. Unless of course you fall into the group of people that don't believe in private property.

Regarding the bolded - I'm so glad the left doesn't engage in stuff like that.

Taxes aren't theft. That you've been led to believe that is proof how much you've swallowed propaganda hook line and sinker. Taxes and publicly funded programs are the reason you get to enjoy first world comforts. But if you think that taxes which go to fund public assistance programs is theft, then there are plenty of countries that don't steal from its hard working citizens via taxes (aka theft!!!!!!!!), like Somalia.

[Wells]

No one hates freedom of association more than people who oppose RTW.

Unless of course you want to count "Freedom to quit a union shop".

You have no right to a job if you don't want to sign the contract Laize.

[Monoxyde]

Because it's too easy to just jump on a band wagon and rail against something (as most internet forums prove).

that statement goes both ways. i don't see a lot of bandwagon jumping in this thread. i see people who have made an educated decision on their own, one that you disagree with. so you dismiss their ideas as bandwagon jumping.

[Masark]

No one hates freedom of association more than people who oppose RTW.

Unless of course you want to count "Freedom to quit a union shop".

Why is your answer to any workplace issue is "quit and find another job then!" except when it's involving union membership being a job requirement?

[Wells]

Why is your answer to any workplace issue is "quit and find another job then!" except when it's involving union membership being a job requirement?

Because he believes in freedom*