[Balance] Sunfyre's "Fix my Balance DPS!" thread.

[Reyzzz]

I'm unsure how to fix it aside from gear.

The only way is to get gear.

Not sure if you expected to have more dps than people with 30 ilvls higher gear.

[land]

Balance druids are extremely gear dependent. You won't start doing really well until 500+. Might be even higher actually. Your rotation is fine. We always burst high during the opening rotation then it drops like a rock.

We aren't that bad (i.e. high burst then shitty damage) if you use treants, it compensates pretty well for a 1 min cd.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 11:40 AM ----------

Im feeling this too, 520 ilvl here and im bottom of the pile feeling really disheartened as im usually further up, any tips/tricks for this so i can not suck?

Give us logs

[NightZero88]

We aren't that bad (i.e. high burst then shitty damage) if you use treants, it compensates pretty well for a 1 min cd.

Nobody uses treants currently. Maybe in 5.3 they might be better but if you're using them now..you likely shouldn't be offering advice. Our DPS does spike with CDs then drops, trying to argue that is just silly.

[Chisato]

You can't really expect any miracle dps from your gear right now. If you are progressing in heroics, it shouldn't be to hard to pick up some gear and you will start noticing the difference when you get to 510+.

Thanks for the reply. I've only played mage and shadow priest as caster DPS until now and I'm able to do good damage at ilvl 490-500 and even below on those characters. It's hard not to panic when I see low numbers and I'm trying to learn and gear this boomkin as quick as possible. I don't think I'm messing up the rotation to such huge effect as to completely trash my DPS though, so I will try to simply be more patient and wait until I have better gear, set bonuses, legendary gems, socket, meta, etc to criticize myself so harshly. It really helps to have a second opinion and reassurance from longtime boomkin players though.

[Drayarr]

We aren't that bad (i.e. high burst then shitty damage) if you use treants, it compensates pretty well for a 1 min cd.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 11:40 AM ----------



Give us logs

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-txtj2bi8meodtoat/

Been trying but i just dont know how to up my deeps on that fight i end up running around like a headless chicken

Will link some logs from normal "farm" bosses from tonight if I get in so you can analyse my performance on that in case I'm making any mistakes

[land]

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-txtj2bi8meodtoat/

Been trying but i just dont know how to up my deeps on that fight i end up running around like a headless chicken

Will link some logs from normal "farm" bosses from tonight if I get in so you can analyse my performance on that in case I'm making any mistakes

First of all: i see a bunch of your guildies have the legendary meta get and you don't. Just that one item is a crazy amount of increases dps that you're missing on (my wrathcalc sims something around 18k dps iirc).

Horridon 25N: ur NG uptime seems a bit low (68%) but the most important thing I can see on this attempt is that you have to push INC+CA quicker on the 1st or 2nd time else you won't have enough uptime at the end of the fight (which is what's going to give you the highest dps increase cuz of boss's debuff). It looked like you weren't even able to pop CA on the 3rd time, if boss is about to die i'd have just pushed both inc+ca at the same time plus a pot (which by the way would make also a big difference at that phase - doens't look like you potted there). Lastly, if boss is on farm and adds are dying too quick I'd recommend just dotting up adds but whenever casting just target boss, same for SS procs, toss it on boss since he's taking extra damage (don't recommend this if adds are getting out of control).

Maegera N: you didn't do too bad there, if you are wondering how are the mage and lock so far ahead, just check how much damage they did to the Venomous Head (looks like this is the one you guys don't attack). You had only 4.7M on it while the mage had 19M which is a clear strat to padd metter since as far as I know the mage would get nothing out of keeping his dot on the inactive head. Also, dont forget both mage and lock have the legendary meta gem (so their deeps will be far off from ur till u get that). Last tip I can say for this boss, considering how quick you guys are killing it, is to go treants instead of INC since you didn't have enough time to squeeze a 3rd INC+CA combo, might as well go treants which is on a 1 min cd (not to mention that if you pop inc and you have to move then ur pretty much screwed.

[NightZero88]

for this boss, considering how quick you guys are killing it, is to go treants instead of INC since you didn't have enough time to squeeze a 3rd INC+CA combo, might as well go treants which is on a 1 min cd (not to mention that if you pop inc and you have to move then ur pretty much screwed.

Why do you keep recommending treants? As far as I know there is no time where they are ever better than other abilities this tier. 5.3 when they can be kept up permanently maybe but for right now they are bad.

[land]

Nobody uses treants currently. Maybe in 5.3 they might be better but if you're using them now..you likely shouldn't be offering advice. Our DPS does spike with CDs then drops, trying to argue that is just silly.

u so mean :-P Seriously, wrathcalcs is giving me a higher dps using treants, maybe its how it aligns with my engineering gloves, not sure. I've tested it out on some single target fights where either INC wouldn't align well or we'd be killing the boss right b4 inc was off cd and it looked pretty good. Seems like a decent option for movement heavy fights too where I'd pop INC and be forced to moved = I'm screwed. Not good for multi-target fights or a fight like Jin'rok (treant's don't seem to get a buff from standing on it).

[NightZero88]

u so mean :-P Seriously, wrathcalcs is giving me a higher dps using treants, maybe its how it aligns with my engineering gloves, not sure. I've tested it out on some single target fights where either INC wouldn't align well or we'd be killing the boss right b4 inc was off cd and it looked pretty good. Seems like a decent option for movement heavy fights too where I'd pop INC and be forced to moved = I'm screwed. Not good for multi-target fights or a fight like Jin'rok (treant's don't seem to get a buff from standing on it).

I believe no stats affect treants currently. It will next patch but doesn't right now so I'm not sure why your glove enchant would make a difference. I could be wrong though.

[Stommped]

They do snapshot your stats currently. The only stat which won't effect them is Mastery since they don't get Eclipse bonus. I'm not sure how spirit/hit works for them either, but I doubt it's an issue.

[Deleted]

u so mean :-P Seriously, wrathcalcs is giving me a higher dps using treants, maybe its how it aligns with my engineering gloves, not sure. I've tested it out on some single target fights where either INC wouldn't align well or we'd be killing the boss right b4 inc was off cd and it looked pretty good. Seems like a decent option for movement heavy fights too where I'd pop INC and be forced to moved = I'm screwed. Not good for multi-target fights or a fight like Jin'rok (treant's don't seem to get a buff from standing on it).

It's slightly higher on paper, but not in reality. Incarnation multiplies up with multiple targets, damage multipliers, etc in how much DPS it gives you but FoN is also dumb as hell and waste casts/move for no reason/die which reduce their actual DPS.

[Drayarr]

First of all: i see a bunch of your guildies have the legendary meta get and you don't. Just that one item is a crazy amount of increases dps that you're missing on (my wrathcalc sims something around 18k dps iirc).

Horridon 25N: ur NG uptime seems a bit low (68%) but the most important thing I can see on this attempt is that you have to push INC+CA quicker on the 1st or 2nd time else you won't have enough uptime at the end of the fight (which is what's going to give you the highest dps increase cuz of boss's debuff). It looked like you weren't even able to pop CA on the 3rd time, if boss is about to die i'd have just pushed both inc+ca at the same time plus a pot (which by the way would make also a big difference at that phase - doens't look like you potted there). Lastly, if boss is on farm and adds are dying too quick I'd recommend just dotting up adds but whenever casting just target boss, same for SS procs, toss it on boss since he's taking extra damage (don't recommend this if adds are getting out of control).

Maegera N: you didn't do too bad there, if you are wondering how are the mage and lock so far ahead, just check how much damage they did to the Venomous Head (looks like this is the one you guys don't attack). You had only 4.7M on it while the mage had 19M which is a clear strat to padd metter since as far as I know the mage would get nothing out of keeping his dot on the inactive head. Also, dont forget both mage and lock have the legendary meta gem (so their deeps will be far off from ur till u get that). Last tip I can say for this boss, considering how quick you guys are killing it, is to go treants instead of INC since you didn't have enough time to squeeze a 3rd INC+CA combo, might as well go treants which is on a 1 min cd (not to mention that if you pop inc and you have to move then ur pretty much screwed.

RNG properly fucking me over with secrets, 15 got 2 in the last 3 resets. Good Game Blizzard.
When the 2nd door adds are up with effusions im just like "FUCKING ARRRRGHH" and try to dot EVERYTHING which i guess is a bad idea i should just eclipse dot and tunnel 1 target?
I just need to pay more attention to my INC+CA Timers to get them popped on CD 2'nd time, i was saving them for the 2'nd door to nuke the priests asap

With regards to Meg, I was padding a bit just for epeen sake but I wasn't really that concerned about the logs just getting concerned now as I've reinstalled a DPS meter and I'm not as high as i expected to be and I want to work out why/fix any problems
Our group changes on a week by week basis so kills are faster/slower week by week.

Will link tonights logs for Durumu/Primordius (sitting out for DA for people who need loot) and Iron Qon, Twins and Lei Shen (if we get that far)

Logs for tonight
Mortalis didnt log Durumu or Primordius
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p3p0arystrw4u2xd/

Am I relying on UVLS too much?

[land]

RNG properly fucking me over with secrets, 15 got 2 in the last 3 resets. Good Game Blizzard.
When the 2nd door adds are up with effusions im just like "FUCKING ARRRRGHH" and try to dot EVERYTHING which i guess is a bad idea i should just eclipse dot and tunnel 1 target?
I just need to pay more attention to my INC+CA Timers to get them popped on CD 2'nd time, i was saving them for the 2'nd door to nuke the priests asap

With regards to Meg, I was padding a bit just for epeen sake but I wasn't really that concerned about the logs just getting concerned now as I've reinstalled a DPS meter and I'm not as high as i expected to be and I want to work out why/fix any problems
Our group changes on a week by week basis so kills are faster/slower week by week.

Will link tonights logs for Durumu/Primordius (sitting out for DA for people who need loot) and Iron Qon, Twins and Lei Shen (if we get that far)

Logs for tonight
Mortalis didnt log Durumu or Primordius
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p3p0arystrw4u2xd/

Am I relying on UVLS too much?

Lol dude! I assumed you were the toon 'Predator' when I first checked the logs from Horridon and Maegera. Just realized my mistake when on this new log I saw 2 boomies Ok now looking @ the right logs (lol!)
.
Iron Qon: you beat the other boomies but he tranq'd and you didn't. Don't see anything wrong on this fight though the ULVS trink will suck bad if it procs when boss's shield is up and u can't really move in time (still hate that part of the fight )
Twin: looks like you potted at end without any cds up? I'd pop a pot there when the 2 bosses are up and inc/ca is up (this is what the other boomie did). Noticed you had to tranq. Also noticed you guys didnt hero (maybe a bug int he log?).
Lei: similar to Twin, u tranq'd thus the prob reason to be lower than the other boomie. Btw I find displacer beast really good on that fight, use it for every change of pillar.

[Omertocracy]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r/Jasla/simple
Halps meh! I don't think I'm doing the right dps for my ilvl. 495 and I do just over 60k without any fight gimmicks. This is an alt's offspec, but if I'm gonna do it, I wanna do it right.

I start out with Starfall into Wrath for Eclipse then pop NV and incarnation then sunfire moonfire starsurge and starfire to 0, then CA and my crit trinket, starfall as soon as it falls off, reapply dots as soon as they fall off, and again as the last gcd before all the cooldowns fall off simultaneously.
I then SF and wr back and forth, making sure to cast Starsurge as first cast (or asap if on cd) and last cast in Solar (if procced) since it will be at 5 energy. I use SS on proc during Lunar. I use Starfall as soon as I enter Lunar. I reapply my dots the first thing into their Eclipse, and right before they fall off (clip one tick) if it's in the other. I reapply both right before NG falls off either way since I don't have the crit (19%) to keep them going full cycle. I use NV and that trinket on cd (90 and 60 respectively) to make sure they line up for the full cycle again at 3min.

I feel like I am doing dps equal to what I should have 20 ilvl ago.

[Drayarr]

Lol dude! I assumed you were the toon 'Predator' when I first checked the logs from Horridon and Maegera. Just realized my mistake when on this new log I saw 2 boomies Ok now looking @ the right logs (lol!)
.
Iron Qon: you beat the other boomies but he tranq'd and you didn't. Don't see anything wrong on this fight though the ULVS trink will suck bad if it procs when boss's shield is up and u can't really move in time (still hate that part of the fight )
Twin: looks like you potted at end without any cds up? I'd pop a pot there when the 2 bosses are up and inc/ca is up (this is what the other boomie did). Noticed you had to tranq. Also noticed you guys didnt hero (maybe a bug int he log?).
Lei: similar to Twin, u tranq'd thus the prob reason to be lower than the other boomie. Btw I find displacer beast really good on that fight, use it for every change of pillar.

Im using DB for most fights now, prefer it over FS.
I tranq when requested, 2nd pot was just to push a bit more deeps
I thought we did BLOODLUST on Twins o.0
There must be some rotational problems in there somewhere, I feel like my dps is subpar for my gear, I don't want to take up raid spot if im underperforming

[Slippykins]

RNG properly fucking me over with secrets, 15 got 2 in the last 3 resets. Good Game Blizzard.
When the 2nd door adds are up with effusions im just like "FUCKING ARRRRGHH" and try to dot EVERYTHING which i guess is a bad idea i should just eclipse dot and tunnel 1 target?
I just need to pay more attention to my INC+CA Timers to get them popped on CD 2'nd time, i was saving them for the 2'nd door to nuke the priests asap

With regards to Meg, I was padding a bit just for epeen sake but I wasn't really that concerned about the logs just getting concerned now as I've reinstalled a DPS meter and I'm not as high as i expected to be and I want to work out why/fix any problems
Our group changes on a week by week basis so kills are faster/slower week by week.

Will link tonights logs for Durumu/Primordius (sitting out for DA for people who need loot) and Iron Qon, Twins and Lei Shen (if we get that far)

Logs for tonight
Mortalis didnt log Durumu or Primordius
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p3p0arystrw4u2xd/

Am I relying on UVLS too much?

Iron Qon:

I'm just going to use my logs to compare against yours. I could do a lot better with my rotation/luck, but as a basic tool it should work. Our Iron Qon kill: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-7n...?s=7163&e=7743.

• Our kills are only separated by 18 seconds, yet you only fit in 25 eclipse phases and I managed 31. I do acknowledge that part of this is due to me having the legendary meta and yourself not. This could affect my next point as well.
• Your Nature's Grace uptime is at 67.7% whereas mine is at 82%. This can be maximised mostly from avoiding as much movement as you can (this is a killer for DPS, as you'd know), but also you must make sure you aren't wasting globals on overwriting DoTs too early and such. High boomkin DPS comes mostly from efficiently cycling eclipses.
• Your Starfalls look pretty good; that's about all I could gather from your Iron Qon kill. You only have 19% SS waste, which is quite good for your 12k crit rating. Consider switching to a GCD haste cap build (10296) as I think you'd benefit from it.

Twin Consorts:

Again, comparing your Consorts kill to mine: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-e9...4/?s=129&e=689...

• I'm seeing the same kind of thing with NG: 71% uptime compared to 87%, and 24 eclipses vs. 31. A good couple of those will be because of the legendary meta gem difference, but otherwise I think making sure you're pushing those eclipses as fast as possible and minimising movement will be a good bonus for your DPS.
• You had slightly more SS proc waste (25% for this fight). I think this is around average for your crit rating, but bear in mind it's a lot of damage that could be gained (and it also means faster eclipse cycles) if you were to get those in. A lot of them wont be possible, but I'm sure some of them were. Another thing to note is that I got a 23% SS proc waste but a total of 173 SS procs, with lower crit rating than you. That may have been purely due to luck, but make sure you're multidotting Suen during the Lu'lin phase when she pops up, both once she emerges and just before she disappears.
• Other than those points, I can't see any other differences.

Overall, I think that's the real point you'd have to work on: maximising multidot uptime and minimising time spent during your eclipse cycling. The legendary meta gem will boost your damage significantly (up to 15%), but it seems your movement is too high. I don't have enough time to go through your Lei Shen kill, but I think we covered everything anyway.

[craigp100]

I recently reached level 90 on my boomkin but was carried through part of ToT by my guild to scoop up some loot. I won several pieces in the raid but I do still have some very weak pieces of gear from leveling, dungeons, and grabbing whatever epics I could with honour points.

I do realize I'm missing a bracer enchant at the moment. I'm working on grinding my leatherworking up and the armour piece is a PvP item, so just waiting to finish LW for the enchant instead of wasting crystals.

Here's my character: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Chii/advanced

Even though I have a few weak items, I still feel my DPS should be higher than what I've managed in LFR the past week. I have pored over the guide here on MMO Champ, as well as the guide on EJ. It seems like I'm doing everything right but my sustained DPS tends to just plummet in raids. I tend to average around 80-90k DPS on most LFR fights.

I have noticed that since getting a bit more gear my rotation seems more fluid. Reaching eclipses doesn't take as long as it used to now that I have more haste for faster casting in general (reached the first DoT plateau) and more crit for procs to reach the next eclipse faster.

My DPS is always high after following the proper pull rotation, starting at one tick from lunar eclipse, using starfall, wrath, incarnation, both DoTs, starfall again once the first expires, starsurge, starfire until energy is 0, celestial alignment and berserking, starfall, DoT, and spamming starsurge/starfire. I refresh my DoTs with 1-2 seconds left on celestial alignment.

Once celestial alignment wears off and I begin my normal rotation towards a solar eclipse, my DPS steadily goes down. I also cannot seem to find the proper flow of using the CDs again, even when I am standing still and simply chain casting from eclipse to eclipse. As soon as my CDs are up I wait for another lunar eclipse and use them similarly to the opening rotation.

During movement phases I keep DoTs up, prioritizing the eclipsed DoT, and use the instant cast starsurge procs whenever it's up. I admit I am not great yet at placing mushrooms on the run but that's something I plan to practice and improve upon.

My guild is currently progressing on heroic Horridon and we were short numbers so I was asked to come fill a spot on my boomkin. Most players in the guild are 510-520+ ilvl but even still, my DPS was complete bottom of the barrel. I would mainly focus Horridon with my normal rotation until priority adds spawned, then would immediately switch to them. When several priority adds are up I try to mainly use the eclipse DoT on each priority add then focus the main kill target until DoTs begin to fall. My DPS was absolutely terrible. I averaged around 95k, which was the lowest by far in the raid.

I have to admit I'm feeling somewhat discouraged already. Am I doing something glaringly wrong? Are boomkins simply gear dependent? If anyone has advice for me I would greatly appreciate it. I enjoy the class, rotation, and playstyle but my DPS is so so horrible and I'm unsure how to fix it aside from gear.

Your gear, talents and glyphs seem to be in check. The only things I might be very picky on is a) your boot enchant can be changed to +275 haste you have the +15% movement speed from our tier 1 talents, b) trying to reforge off some of that excess hit and c) using a +320 crit gem in your boots.

You seem to have put in a good amount of effort in reading guides etc but I'm afraid without proper logs it is going to be very hard for anyone on here to assist you in where you are going wrong. I also took the liberty of trying to find logs for your guild but to no avail. I would suggest making your own logs and posting back to us here (Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oILgikavPcg) and then we can assist you further.

A few telltale signs on bad DPS what I look out for is
1) Low uptime on Nature's Grace (the haste bonus we gain whenever we enter an eclipse). Typically an uptime of ~60% on single target fights is optimal more or less but this differs fight on fight.
2) Not getting the most out of your CDS (Incarnation, starfall, celestial alignment)- i.e. using incarnation once when a fight permits at least three uses etc
3) low DoT (Sunfire / Moonfire) uptime. you want to aim for ~100% uptime on your DoTs on a single target fight (i.e. Jin'rokh)

[primalfears]

looking at your Iron Qon kill compared to mine a few things jumped out at me

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=7305&e=7751 Mine

1. The first thing is your Natures Grace uptime is 67% which is not to bad without your meta but the higher you can get this the better
2. My fight was 2 minutes shorter then yours but we had close to the same amount of cast which could mean a few things your moving to much or you just had shit rng and had spears on you everytime. To fix movement on this fight i found it best to try and see where the spear lands and try to time a starsurge proc with moving out of the lines and when stacking to use dotting and starsurge procs to move to the group.

Just getting better at timing your movement and keeping nature grace uptime higher and your dps will climb. Once you get the the Meta gem you will jump up the meters as well so dont worry to much about it.

[Chisato]

Your gear, talents and glyphs seem to be in check. The only things I might be very picky on is a) your boot enchant can be changed to +275 haste you have the +15% movement speed from our tier 1 talents, b) trying to reforge off some of that excess hit and c) using a +320 crit gem in your boots.

You seem to have put in a good amount of effort in reading guides etc but I'm afraid without proper logs it is going to be very hard for anyone on here to assist you in where you are going wrong. I also took the liberty of trying to find logs for your guild but to no avail. I would suggest making your own logs and posting back to us here (Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oILgikavPcg) and then we can assist you further.

A few telltale signs on bad DPS what I look out for is
1) Low uptime on Nature's Grace (the haste bonus we gain whenever we enter an eclipse). Typically an uptime of ~60% on single target fights is optimal more or less but this differs fight on fight.
2) Not getting the most out of your CDS (Incarnation, starfall, celestial alignment)- i.e. using incarnation once when a fight permits at least three uses etc
3) low DoT (Sunfire / Moonfire) uptime. you want to aim for ~100% uptime on your DoTs on a single target fight (i.e. Jin'rokh)

Thank you for the reply! My guild brought me into the raid tonight to scoop up more loot. My armoury now reflects gear around 15 ilvls higher than when the logs were taken, just as an added note. Also tonight was my first time seeing many of the fights in normal mode, so I was fumbling with mechanics a little bit. I also have almost no idea of moonkin-specific strategy for most of these fights. I wasn't expecting to be thrown into raiding quite so soon. Nevertheless, here's the log for Jikun from tonight: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qu...?s=5474&e=5789

After reading your post, I checked the logs specifically for Jikun. My Nature's Grace uptime is slightly higher than 60% but my DoT uptime isn't good. I run into the problem of DoTs falling when I'm 1-2 casts away from an eclipse, so I generally push toward the eclipse instead of wasting globals to reDoT, then DoT again once I'm at eclipse. Is this poor judgment?

Please let me know if you see any other problems in the log.

Also, after I gemmed, enchanted, and reforged my new gear from tonight I spent some time on the test dummies in Org. I DPSed for roughly 3 minutes straight and came out around 91k DPS on the dummy with only self-buffs. I downloaded the latest Simcraft and ran my character through for test dummy target, only self buffs, and elite player skill and came out around 93k DPS. Do those numbers sound right? Is Simcraft reliable for boomkin? I have to admit, I was a bit disappointed with the low numbers even after adding so much gear to my character! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Chii/advanced

I'm very eager to learn how to best play boomkin and I appreciate your help so much!

[Juvencus]

Thank you for the reply! My guild brought me into the raid tonight to scoop up more loot. My armoury now reflects gear around 15 ilvls higher than when the logs were taken, just as an added note. Also tonight was my first time seeing many of the fights in normal mode, so I was fumbling with mechanics a little bit. I also have almost no idea of moonkin-specific strategy for most of these fights. I wasn't expecting to be thrown into raiding quite so soon. Nevertheless, here's the log for Jikun from tonight: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qu...?s=5474&e=5789

After reading your post, I checked the logs specifically for Jikun. My Nature's Grace uptime is slightly higher than 60% but my DoT uptime isn't good. I run into the problem of DoTs falling when I'm 1-2 casts away from an eclipse, so I generally push toward the eclipse instead of wasting globals to reDoT, then DoT again once I'm at eclipse. Is this poor judgment?

Please let me know if you see any other problems in the log.

Also, after I gemmed, enchanted, and reforged my new gear from tonight I spent some time on the test dummies in Org. I DPSed for roughly 3 minutes straight and came out around 91k DPS on the dummy with only self-buffs. I downloaded the latest Simcraft and ran my character through for test dummy target, only self buffs, and elite player skill and came out around 93k DPS. Do those numbers sound right? Is Simcraft reliable for boomkin? I have to admit, I was a bit disappointed with the low numbers even after adding so much gear to my character! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Chii/advanced

I'm very eager to learn how to best play boomkin and I appreciate your help so much!

The other guys got you pretty much covered. I have to say.

About the bolded part above you can check http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t132274-...mechanics_t15/