Every Man for Himself - Time to Go?

[Snuggli]

Racials shouldn't be removed, they add a lot to the game (including Arena). It's like an extra talent point that players can pick - adds more to comp/class/talent diversity etc. It would be interesting if you could pick or change your racial though (not all the time). My Druid would love WotF or EMFH.

I'm not going to argue whether EMFH is balanced or not for PvP in general, but there is definitely an argument to be made whether it is overtuned in comparison to other alliance racials.

An interesting fix would be making EMFH behave identically to WotF, in that, they don't share a cooldown with PvP trinket - but using one incurs a small cooldown on the other (So you cant trinket twice in a row). Obviously EMFH would have to be a longer cooldown than WotF, as WotF doesn't break all CC, but I think something like this could work.

[Calibar]

I think it should stay, and that all racials should be something a little overpowered. Dwarves' stoneform should become a bubble. Night Elves' shadowmeld should become a stealth mode. Taurens' war stomp should become intimidating shout. Will of the Forsaken should provide fear immunity for 30 seconds. They add flavour to the game, increase diversity and create different combinations and challenges.

I like the way you think. I don't want a game that's completely fair for everyone... just makes the game to bland and homogenized...

[Svarbald]

So thinking about it lately (really didn't take much thought to begin with, but alas) a lot of a the ridiculous burst we see from some classes can be partially attributed to those classes having access to an extra damage trinket, be it an extra 4k Int/Str/Agi + 1300 PvP power, or simply some of the insane PvE trinkets available due to playing human. No other race has something as gamebreaking for PvP, though a close contender could be considered Undead's Will of the Forsaken.

While this game can be considered far from fair in some respects it would be nice for all races to be around a level playing field; some classes such as Druids and Shamans are restricted in that they have no choice but to play a race other than human; as they are restricted to 4 races.

I'm not saying this racial is gamebreaking, but I would think a decent portion of the PvP community would think this racial is a bit beyond what's available to the majority of other races in terms of PvP gameplay.

So to get down to it, and I definitely welcome discussion for any sway to the matter, what would you like done about this racial? Left alone? Removed and replaced? Given to everyone? Or simply reworked, maybe with a higher cooldown than standard Medallion trinkets for example.

Horde have the best offensive racials. Learn to play the game and stop trying to make your favorite faction (horde) OP.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 07:32 PM ----------

He's talking about PvP, not PvE.. In PvP it's really strong and gives more than just slight advantage..
In PvE so many people went troll for ToT for the same reason - 5% dps increase is just too good to pass on..

Racials shouldn't go away.. but they should be reconsidered and changed.. More flavor/fun racials please (rocket jumps etc..)

Rocket Jump?? Right, thats what PVP BG need, even more gap closer/openers.

[Deleted]

I'm not going to argue whether EMFH is balanced or not for PvP in general, but there is definitely an argument to be made whether it is overtuned in comparison to other alliance racials.

An interesting fix would be making EMFH behave identically to WotF, in that, they don't share a cooldown with PvP trinket - but using one incurs a small cooldown on the other (So you cant trinket twice in a row). Obviously EMFH would have to be a longer cooldown than WotF, as WotF doesn't break all CC, but I think something like this could work.

EMFH compared to Horde racials = Fine, actually worse for some classes then a lot of the Horde racials.
EMFH compared to Alliance racials = By far the best, because all of their other racials are pretty much complete garbage both for PvP and PvE.

From this point, how does one come to the conclusion that EMFH should be nerf to bring it in line with the other Alliance racials? If anything the other Alliance racials should be buffed to bring them in line with EMFH AND the Horde racials.

[Orly]

EMFH compared to Horde racials = Fine, actually worse for some classes then a lot of the Horde racials.
EMFH compared to Alliance racials = By far the best, because all of their other racials are pretty much complete garbage both for PvP and PvE.

From this point, how does one come to the conclusion that EMFH should be nerf to bring it in line with the other Alliance racials? If anything the other Alliance racials should be buffed to bring them in line with EMFH AND the Horde racials.

Pretty much this. People should stop seeing EMFH as gamebreaking just because it's the best alliance racial, and instead ask for better racials to the other alliance races so that pvp would be more diverse.

[Maxilian]

Blizzard should modify the racials or delete them all and just leave some of them (like the worgens 2 forms)

[Baracuda]

So what you are saying is that Horde racials are through the bench better than the Alliance one's and so in the overall picture EMFH is actually in line if not weaker than some of them. But that shouldn't matter since it should only be compared to Alliance racials since it forces Alliance people to play human because it is pretty much the ONLY decent PvP racials they have. But instead of bringing the others up to par your idea is to ruin the only decent Alliance PvP racial they have? Sounds logical!

I was actually referring to you when I wrote this, the part you skipped:

The worst counter-argument is: some horde racials are also OP, I.E. let's do nothing about anything(2 wrongs make 1 right). Fix ALL OP racials.

It would make balance even worse if they buffed 9 racials instead of tuning down/changing 4(human, orc, undead+troll?) and require a lot more effort. Just changing EMFH would indeed ruin the Alliance and that's why the hordes need to be looked at too.

[Deleted]

Pretty much this. People should stop seeing EMFH as gamebreaking just because it's the best alliance racial, and instead ask for better racials to the other alliance races so that pvp would be more diverse.

It's a general thing, there are some Horde racials who're also pretty bad but we overall have far better choices available. Instead of nerfing the good ones they should buff the bad ones to be on par with the good ones. In case of the Alliance EMFH looks overpowered because the vast mayority of Alliance PvP players use it, but if one takes a look behind the pure statistical data the reason for it should be obvious, for classes who can be humans there simply is NO alternative because the Alliance racials are plain bad. (In both PvP and PvE)

It would make balance even worse if they buffed 9 racials instead of tuning down/changing 4(human, orc, undead+troll?) and require a lot more effort. Just changing EMFH would indeed ruin the Alliance and that's why the hordes need to be looked at too.

Didn't skip it, I just don't agree with you. Btw other racials such as belf silence for melees for example or the Tauren stomp aren't bad either, just worse than the alternatives. This still puts them far ahead of the Alliance crap.

And altough I'd love to be able to go back to goblin since I can't count how often rocket jump saved my life, I'd rather have the other racials buffed to be on par with the current ones than the new "op" ones nerfed onto uselessness.

[Yvaelle]

Only 2 Racials should be removed and replaced, Every Man for Himself and Will of the Forsaken. Trinket effects are too powerful to be optional. Good racial design is stuff like Orc Rage, Night Elf Shadowmeld, Dwarf Stoneform, Blood Elf Mana Tap - these things make sense. An orc should be able kind of rage-y and able to hit harder than everyone else, any given night elf should be sneakier than the average denizen of Azeroth, any given Dwarf should be heartier, any given Tauren should be tastier when grilled (oops!), blood elves should steal your mana (or silence you).

Not only do those sorts of racials make sense, they could even be made more powerful to further distinguish the races by their racials. The reason why EMFHS and WOTF are nonsense is that they aren't racials - they are third trinket slots. Give Humans and Undead something new, get rid of trinket-effect "racials". Make the Undead life-drain proc even stronger for all I care, that one at least makes some thematic sense - for humans I'm sure someone can come up with an option that doesn't involve being grossly overpowered (ditto for Undead).

[Deleted]

Sorry but I have to completly disagree Yvaelle. Lore should NEVER at no point play any kind of role when it comes to balancing stuff for PvP especially not racials. So what if it makes sense lore wise if it is mayorly broken in PvP and yes some of the racials which you would like to see buffed such as the Orc ones are just as broken or even more so than EMFH. 25% reduced stun alone for Orcs is HUGE, extremly huge.

On the other hand the nelf stealth and dwarf form are pretty much useless, blood elf arcane torrent is nice for melees as an additional interrupt and garbage for casters and so on. This isn't about lore, it's about balancing and what you proposed would only end up making things worse.

[Yvaelle]

Sorry but I have to completly disagree Yvaelle. Lore should NEVER at no point play any kind of role when it comes to balancing stuff for PvP especially not racials. So what if it makes sense lore wise if it is mayorly broken in PvP and yes some of the racials which you would like to see buffed such as the Orc ones are just as broken or even more so than EMFH. 25% reduced stun alone for Orcs is HUGE, extremly huge.

On the other hand the nelf stealth and dwarf form are pretty much useless, blood elf arcane torrent is nice for melees as an additional interrupt and garbage for casters and so on. This isn't about lore, it's about balancing and what you proposed would only end up making things worse.

Most of what I propose is getting rid of EMfHS and WotF. If that means providing races with other racials, or making existing racials more prominent to keep race as an interesting diversity choice (which seems to be Blizzards stance) so be it. In the case of the Orc one, I'd actually rather see them buff Orc Rage, and remove Orc Stun-Reduction. Similarly Remove Will of the Forsaken, and buff Undead Lifetap proc. Remove Every Man For Himself and give Humans something new (I'd say give them Stealth Detect back, but that was silly and contributed too much to the stealth detect war - which has mostly died down in MoP - and shouldn't be restarted).

[Krolikn]

Most of the racials need to be reworked and balanced. Sadly if you are serious about PvE or PvP you are forced into certain races.

[Pancha]

I want my 'Find treasure' racial back

On-topic: Leave it alone.

[Snuggli]

nelf stealth and dwarf form are pretty much useless, blood elf arcane torrent is nice for melees as an additional interrupt and garbage for casters and so on. This isn't about lore, it's about balancing and what you proposed would only end up making things worse.

Currently, judging purely by representation above 2.2 (where people play class for racial), the best to worst racials stand like this:

EMFH (32.3%)
WotF (18.5%)
Orc Fury (13.2%)
Belf Silence (7.7%)
Shadowmeld (7%)
Warstomp (6.6%)
Berserking (3.7%)
Stoneform (2.7%)
Draenei Heal (2.2%)
Panda Blind (2%)
Worgen Sprint (1.7%)
Rocket Jump (1.4%)
Root Break (1.1%)

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html


I'd hardly say Shadowmeld is worthless. Apart from the Shaman population being forced to play Stoneform, it's Alliances only other used racial. Druid is the only class which is forced to take it.

[Kuniku]

shadowmeld is pro for rogues, extra vanish ftw! =D

[Deleted]

Its a relic, with the massive amount of pvp power on trinkets it skews balance. They should just do what they did with undead revamp

[Korgoth]

increased stealth detection... really? for EMFH? good trade :/.

What part of:

Every Man for Himself should become baseline for everyone and a new Racial given to humans (like Old School Perception!).

Did you not understand?

Why have the CC removal trinket in the game at all? Most gear slots for PvP have 1 choice, but trinkets we get multiple choices, but are then forced into taking the CC break every season. Wouldn't the game be more interesting if you got to have some more choice in PVP gear, which making EMFH baseline on all classes would accomplish.

Human is a better design, since you get to make more decisions.

[Matt0193]

Human is a better design, since you get to make more decisions.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, considering one of the biggest points they tried to make with MoP was player choices. Cookie cutter talent specs? Here, pick spells and passives that you like using (Granted that failed somewhat, since you were almost forced into certain talents anyway). You would've thought they'd have applied a similar designed to PvP gearing, do you want to use 2 DPS trinkets? Or do you want to use one and go for a BM trinket to help survive burst?

It would be good if they also removed the Unique-Equipped tag and let you use whichever trinkets you liked, so double proc trinket? Double On-Use trinket for more frequent controlled burst? Double BM trinket for greater survival options.

It would be nice, but I guess it'll never happen.

[Deleted]

I like the way you think. I don't want a game that's completely fair for everyone... just makes the game to bland and homogenized...

Exactly. If I wanted completely fair, balanced PvP I'd go become one of those Call of Duty scrubs.

[Lulbalance]

What part of:



Did you not understand?

Why have the CC removal trinket in the game at all? Most gear slots for PvP have 1 choice, but trinkets we get multiple choices, but are then forced into taking the CC break every season. Wouldn't the game be more interesting if you got to have some more choice in PVP gear, which making EMFH baseline on all classes would accomplish.

Human is a better design, since you get to make more decisions.

which part of giving up the advantage of a unique and useful racial for a borderline useless one while every race gets it baseline didn't you understand?

that would just re-work the imbalance unless you changed every other racial in the game. and changing every other racial in the game because you're butt hurt the system that has been in place for years is not 'fair' enough for you, is weak.

trying to reference perception like you're an old hen when it's bogus, buggy and barely useful doesn't add anything to idea.

some racials [and this goes for everyone who cries about this on here every few weeks] are better for pvp, get over it.