World of Warcraft: A victim of circumstance

[Zenko]

What does that, like, even mean?

If you have to ask, you can't afford the wisdom.

[Malcor]

What does that, like, even mean?

If you had a brain you could easily see what I'm saying.

[Axehandle]

What's a z job?

[Deleted]

If you had a brain you could easily see what I'm saying.

If Israel lost 10% of its population in 3 months they'd be going crazy what the hell you on about.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 08:59 PM ----------

If you have to ask, you can't afford the wisdom.

Oh I'll write this down, together with your previous gem

"Hey it's YOUR fault if you don't like pet battles and farming. Quick GO like them or leave the game!!"

[Malcor]

If Israel lost 10% of its population in 3 months they'd be going crazy what the hell you on about.

So again you still don't get what I'm saying, It's okay. Don't stress yourself. It'll click eventually

[Deleted]

So again you still don't get what I'm saying, It's okay. Don't stress yourself. It'll click eventually

Can't wait. Till then ill keep laughing at it. Sorry can't help it.

[enchanted]

Lets not talk on blizz's last attempt to do that... Early cata. When cata first launched, iirc many considered t11 to be very hard and even heroics were, so blizz had to dumb down and nerf the game a little due to casuals and after that the top raiders and people who wanted a challenge asked why the game was too easy... It's hard to make both kinds of costumers happy right now, and casuals are more than the hardcore so blizz would be losing subs faster. I'm guessing if they didnt start to make the game easy in Wrath, we would've kept the same kind of players and less casuals but its too late right now.

[darklogrus]

Lets not talk on blizz's last attempt to do that... Early cata. When cata first launched, iirc many considered t11 to be very hard and even heroics were, so blizz had to dumb down and nerf the game a little due to casuals and after that the top raiders and people who wanted a challenge asked why the game was too easy... It's hard to make both kinds of costumers happy right now, and casuals are more than the hardcore so blizz would be losing subs faster. I'm guessing if they didnt start to make the game easy in Wrath, we would've kept the same kind of players and less casuals but its too late right now.

The hardcore guilds were all using broken mechanics to down heroic content, Heck, they even took it a step further and did it during DS LFR, so to listen to them QQ is kinda silly.

[Xilurm]

If Israel lost 10% of its population in 3 months they'd be going crazy what the hell you on about.

Umm this is kinda funny, can you even comprehend what he is saying?

[Deleted]

Umm this is kinda funny, can you even comprehend what he is saying?

No. Enlighten me please.

[Fullmetal89]

I hope we lose another few million subs. Would make Blizz churn out even better quality content.

That's what I use to think during Cataclysm, then they released MoP and Diablo 3. So yeah....that kind of speaks for itself.

[Snakehead]

That's what I use to think during Cataclysm, then they released MoP and Diablo 3. So yeah....that kind of speaks for itself.

The world of Warcraft is like the titanic when it first hit the iceberg, everyone is shocked after the impact and still panicking before they figure out the ship is sinking.

[Lilija]

In his defense he did mention 2 critical things wow has lost because of impatient, fussy gamers and that's immersion and the social aspect. I agree wow is not a job and should never be approached as one except by those earning money from playing it.

Return to the immersion (probably not possible) and make it a social experience again (much more possible) and this game will resemble what it once was when sub losses were but a thought and not a harsh reality since mid way through wrath.

No and no. I play since Vanilla almost non stop and MoP has been the most immersive lore wise expantion ever. No other content made me actually care for what's happening. As for social aspect I experience much better social interaction outside of guild than I ever did in Vanilla or TBC. People actually start to be more layed back because the game puts less preasure on them.

[mjolnir1122]

Wow, been reading this argument since both sides were bringing up valid points but wow...

Just because someone had a different experience to you, that doesn't make them "small minded" or someone to look down upon, if you can't get immersed in the game the same way someone can get immersed into a book (I didn't find the story in WoW very immersive, but the game world and interacting with players - Horde and Alliance - made it for me) then that's your "problem" and it looks extremely petty to go throwing insults around to people that disagree with you.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 10:11 AM ----------



I have a lot of respect for you, keeping up a job and household in these times I can imagine is hard (I'm a student) - But I can't help but disagree with you partially...

I agree, players should have the chance to -see- all the content, otherwise it's like buying a book that you have to read the first chapters over and over again before you're allowed to know the end. However MMOs are designed to be time sinks, if "casuals" (I really detest that word) are "catered to" you get the Cataclysm scenario where majority (based on my server) of players have nothing to do, but "casuals" are content.

First off, thank you for your kind comments

I have to read over my first post again, but what you're saying is what I've been trying to say for quite a while now. There isn't a single, specific player base that should be catered to. This expansion was not very "casual" friendly (I'm not a big fan of that word, just like I hate using the word assault rifle lol), but it was absolutely a step up from Cataclysm. I did enjoy Cataclysm, as a whole, but the time lapses in between content, the fluctuation of difficulties in content, along with a general empty feeling throughout the expansion definitely put a damper on things for me. Mists definitely rebounded, but overshot it by just a smidge. There should be a pretty distinct balance in content that allows all players to have access to the content, but has aspects that are geared more towards the hardcore players, and aspects that are geared more towards the casual player. It seems like the whole daily debacle was an attempt to appeal to the more casual playerbase, but it ended up becoming a HUGE time sink, one that's more suited for players with a little more time on their hands.

It's a hard balance to make everyone content, and ofcourse there will always be those who find something wrong in everything they do, but I'm really hoping that the next expansion will finally strike a balance between the 2 playstyles since, like I said, they only overshot it this expansion by a tiny bit. 5.1 and 5.2, both with the catch-up features and dailies that didn't bar you from progression, are a pretty good examples, and a pretty good example, that the balance is possible and highly doable.

[ro9ue]

Can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for my guildmates, friends and myself. We all quit because of dailies. We were casual and didn't have time to play every single day, most of us played two nights, some just one day on the weekend. During cata we would at least get points that we could spend freely without also having a reputation gate as well. In mop we needed dungeon RNG luck or we didn;t get shit.

[Deleted]

No and no. I play since Vanilla almost non stop and MoP has been the most immersive lore wise expantion ever. No other content made me actually care for what's happening. As for social aspect I experience much better social interaction outside of guild than I ever did in Vanilla or TBC. People actually start to be more layed back because the game puts less preasure on them.

Completely delusional.
In vanilla people didn't have flying mounts,they barely had ground mounts,the world was smaller,people were forced to constantly ran into each other,not to mention the high difficulty of group quests that forced people to work together,the absence of LFD tool that forced people to group together,the 40-man raids compared to the nowadays 10-mans and barely surviving 25-mans....and you're gonna come here and claim the game is better socially today?

[mjolnir1122]

Is nobody going to touch this? OK, I will.

You're not limited at all from the content. Did Blizzard place some restriction on your account such that you're unable to raid? Granted, if you're a casual player then it will simply take you longer to get to all of the content. Isn't that the way it works with all computer games? Time invested = progress, no? When has this ever been different, excluding skirmish-mode RTS or death match shooters etc.

Let's say you buy a singleplayer RPG with 60 hours gameplay. A hardcore player may burn through it in a couple of days, but it'll take you weeks. Now, because WoW is an MMO we need to add a social barrier. In WoW there are some things that you'll find very difficult to see (close to release) without other players. I can see how casual players can be frustrated here, except that the game does provide many ways for you to get entry-level dungeon & raid gear on your own. Even in vanilla you could get a set that would allow you entry into 5-mans, and then from 5-mans you'd get the entry-level raid gear.

The reason that some (many? all?) casual players did not get to see all the content (including myself in vanilla) in the game, is simply because they are trying to bypass the 'MM' part of 'MMORPG'. You get gated off from the content if you're not willing to socialise. I only started raiding in TBC because it took that long for me to get over my in-game shyness, and actually ask other players to take me along. Back then, many players were very friendly and willing to take along a noob, so long as you'd put in a bit of effort to get some gear beforehand. I don't know why I was so afraid of interacting with others in-game in vanilla, but once I got over it I was able to see the 'gated off' content.

I totally understand where you're coming from on this. No, I'm obviously not physically barred from content, I just have some serious time-constraints. I'm fine with that, especially the way the game is currently set up where yeah, I may have to be a little bit wiser with the time I do spend playing to get to where I want to be. Theres nothing wrong with time invested=progress.

I also have no problem with socialization. I run a guild, I have to be social. The only thing I was pointing out in that post was this demand to return things back to TBC mode. Just because some things were better, the system overall is archaic by today's standards (which is pretty stupid seeing as how were only about 6 years removed from TBC). Whereas WoW has pretty much always been in the lead with it's features (except for things like transmog), doing something as drastic as that would severely limit Blizzard's ability to add in new features. If they were to remove majority of the features they have today, and don't add anything else in, technology wise they would be severely behind the 8-ball. Imagine if one of the current-generation consoles all of the sudden started using 64-bit graphics and that time periods game engines. Ofcourse that's a little drastic, as were talking closer to a 12-14 year jump, but the point is still the same, the point being other games will continue to progress and move forward, while WoW would just slip further and further behind.

The other problem, is that those calling for a TBC reset only represent a very small majority of the WoW community as a whole. To all of the sudden cater to a fraction of your playerbase alienates everyone else. Ofcourse some would stick around, but generally it's alot easier to get used to a game that's features and content progress forward at a steady pace rather than all of the sudden do a 720 degree turn around in the course of an expansion. Doing something like this would not benefit the game, it would be the final nail in the coffin for WoW.

But to get back to what you were saying, yes there are ways to get dungeon gear and raid gear on your own, and there have been workarounds since Vanilla. My issue with seeing content is not that I'm not willing to socialize (I used to pug ICC like it was nobodys business lol), it's simply that between the time it takes to get the full group together, get to the raid, get all set up and buffed, I'm already running thin on my time I can be in the raid, and I don't expect 9 or 24 other people to cater to me because of my own restraints. That's why for players like myself, LFR has been a blessing, since I can still have fun raiding without having to be stuck at a standstill simply because I just don't have the time.

But the reason I really get so worked up about people who complain about "Bring back TBC" is, and I'm not saying it's you since I don't have your armory link, but many complain about how shitty WoW is and theres not enough content and what not, but yet they themselves haven't ever stepped foot in a heroic raid, and if they did haven't made much progress. I've also noticed that alot of people calling for a TBC reset never even made it to Black Temple when it was still current. That is what annoys me. How can you sit here and talk about the good ol' days when you yourself never experienced them.

[Worgoblin]

I'd personally like a magic reset button. I'd hit it right now and put WoW back to BC systems. Back when you earned what you had, the game had immersion, and you had to socialize with the community. Screw everyone "seeing content". Back in the day......you earned that.

Call me old fashioned. However when you earn something....you tend to appreciate it much more.

I agree with you 100%. I don't know that WoW can ever return to the greatness it was. There are too many changes they'd have to revert. Perhaps a "hardcore" server rule set could work, where things like flying mounts and LFD are turned off. Doubt they'll ever do that though.

[ro8ter]

I agree that the whole MMO genre is taking a hit. Along with all the other gaming options out there, including Diablo III a Blizzard product, it's summer time. In the summer subs take a dive cause many go outside instead of staying indoors and playing computer games.

[Lilija]

Completely delusional.
In vanilla people didn't have flying mounts,they barely had ground mounts,the world was smaller,people were forced to constantly ran into each other

And that makes you care about lore how? I didn't feel a part of Azeroth back then - I just did stuff to get higher level and better gear. It's Cataclysm and MoP questing that actually felt that my toon is a part of something.

not to mention the high difficulty of group quests that forced people to work together

You mean those quests everyone skipped eventually because it was too much of a hassle to look for people to do them with and the rewards they gave were not worth the effort?

the absence of LFD tool that forced people to group together

The absence of LFD that made many people quit doing pug dungeons all together because looking for a tank for hours was not fun. Not to mention that if you haven't played a FotM spec you could forget about doing any pugs because people knew better that you are not allowed to the play the game the way you enjoy it.

the 40-man raids compared to the nowadays 10-mans and barely surviving 25-mans....and you're gonna come here and claim the game is better socially today?

40-man raids where about 15 people could afk being carried by the rest of the group?

I'm not sure who here is delusional...

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 09:21 AM ----------

I agree with you 100%. I don't know that WoW can ever return to the greatness it was. There are too many changes they'd have to revert. Perhaps a "hardcore" server rule set could work, where things like flying mounts and LFD are turned off. Doubt they'll ever do that though.

I would love they did something like that so people can see how "fun" it really was and how much nostalgia screws up with the evaluation of old WoW. The most successfull raiders were often egoistic jerks who jumped guilds just to gear up for the better guild (yay, very social) and puging 5 mans was ... I don't even want to remember it was so bad ... people were so bad and elitist knowing better how you are allowed to play the game. Earning anything in Vanilla and TBC was time+luck or eventually using people for you own progression. No real skill involved. Nowadays, if you wanna achieve anything above LFR you really need to know your game and work with others.