4th raid difficulty, Easy Mode, should it happen?

[teddytous]

So... how bout a sliding scale between 1-100% for normal raids.

You set it at 1, all boss stats are reduced by 50%(whatever number) and the gear that drop stats are reduced to a standardized point(110% of heroic 5 man or the previous tier) as you crank up the number both slide in stats accordingly.

Set to 10 - you get 45% recuded stats - gear stats go up 10% of the differnce between 110% of previous tier and full teir level.
20 gets 40% stats and 20% towards tier level gear drop stats
30 gets 35% stats and 30% towards.....

1-25(2 mech removed),26-75=easy mode(1 mech removed),76-99= normal(full mech but tuned away from hard DPS/Heal/tank "checks") - 100= Heroic full mech + strict checks + extra mech

Remove all these arbitrary "easy" normal" hard - just make it a number.

[melodramocracy]

In Wrath, there were 90k 10 man guilds and 60k 25 man guilds raiding.

Exactly. And how many total players in the game? Like I said, raiders = a minority to begin with. Even now.

Now with ToT, which is arguably the least forgiving normal mode raid ever, WoW loses 1.3 million subs. I don't think its a coincidence.

I'm sure you don't, aside from the tremendous assumption that 1.3 million people have tried normal t14, and failed at it. You'd be better served arguing that folks left because they hated the IoT dailies, and even then it would be a guess based on nothing other than trying to bolster an opinion.

You do realize that there's a sizeable % of folks in this game who LFR, yet have never even bothered attempting a normal mode MoP raid, right?

Except for Blizzard's shareholder press release saying casuals are the ones quitting, and blizzard tends to use casual as a synonym for bad.

That isn't data.

[Luko]

Anyone can do normal raids if they've got the time to put into it. The mechanics are a learning process, not a constant and strenuous test of skill. The player has to WANT to learn. They can't sit at the computer feeling that they're above the effort required to learn and memorize a few fights. They've got to put a little effort into it. Once that effort is shared throughout the raid group, bosses drop.

If said player doesn't have the desire to improve, why do they want to do something like raiding in the first place? It's hand in hand. You wanna take it to the next level? Step up, then, and be prepared to put in the work. Nothing new and exciting here. Not sure how this rushed to 57 pages so fast.

[Ragedaug]

Exactly what 'engaging content' was aimed towards them when this game was on an upswing sub-wise? Raiding has always been a minority activity when you look at the entire population. Everything else that was in the game still exists, and more (and all of it is easier than ever).

Naxx 80, Ulduar, ToC, ICC, and Dragonsoul all saw upgrowths in population. T11, T12, T14, and T15 have all seen dramatic declines in population growth.

[anaxie]

Dude you three people have been in this thread all day. If you spent this much time improving your raid you would be workinig on killing Heroic. Jin'rhok by now.

[melodramocracy]

What about people who want content that is too difficult for a nut-less monkey, but not as difficult as Normal modes?

What if I wanted 5 mans that were harder than the current ones, but not as difficult as challenge modes?

What would the answer to that be?

[Keoren]

Please don't insult my intelligence.

I try to avoid bringing the person to the argument unless relevant. The comparison simply came off as weird to me, though I did alter my wording slightly just a moment ago.

This constant attempt by some people to reduce arguments to absurdities is foolish in the extreme.

This is actively being done by both of the camps. The amount of double standards in this thread is on an absurd level.

The best part is that were actually asking for content HARDER than lfr and all we get from players is NO WHY YOU WANT TO DUMB MY GAME DOWN.

Personally I have not argued against it here. If I recall correctly, I've only really brought up the positives and the negatives of some of the suggestions that people have shared.

It's a very good comparison but any comparison if you stretch it to it's extreme it naturally shows some wear and tear.

I commented on it because it brought the normal difficulty across to be on a level of difficulty that I don't believe it is. I was also making the point that no matter the difficulty, some people will feel excluded. The question is where we'd want to place the cutoff.

[Deleted]

YES THEY ARE. That's the fucking point. In fact in addition to that THEY ARE ALSO SIMPLE DON"t HAVE THE STOMACH FOR IT. Now you want a list of what exactly they can't accomplish? Well I posted it earlier but this guys thread on the official forums explains their difficulties and failings in better detail.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=13#246

Educate yourself. I'm tired of fucking doing it.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter though, all you need to know is that they can't and the aren't by and large and the developers are already talking about addressing this.

Why do you feel the need in that first part to hysterically restate your opinion on the subject?
I didn't ask for your opinion,did I?I asked for practical arguments as to why you think that way.

''Educate'' myself?You're ''fucking tired''?
You think highly of yourself don't you?So now I should try to prove your opinions by doing your work and searching for arguments on some random thread?
Ultimately it doesn't matter that you explain to others why you think you're right?

Looks to me like you're just a big smartass but when someone actually aks you for an explanation you can't provide shit.

[Ragashii]

Dude you three people have been in this thread all day. If you spent this much time improving your raid you would be workinig on killing Heroic. Jin'rhok by now.

Had to go get a mothers day present. Just came back. But the argument hasn't really gone anywhere from what I see.

[Ragedaug]

Anyone can do normal raids if they've got the time to put into it. The mechanics are a learning process, not a constant and strenuous test of skill. The player has to WANT to learn. They can't sit at the computer feeling that they're above the effort required to learn and memorize a few fights. They've got to put a little effort into it. Once that effort is shared throughout the raid group, bosses drop.

If said player doesn't have the desire to improve, why do they want to do something like raiding in the first place? It's hand in hand. You wanna take it to the next level? Step up, then, and be prepared to put in the work. Nothing new and exciting here. Not sure how this rushed to 57 pages so fast.

The don't HAVE to want to learn. They can just quit and play a game that was tuned for the level of enjoyment they expect out of a pass time.

[thigan]

And nothing encourages them to improve or get better ASSUMING they have the capacity to do so. LFR sure as hell doesn't. Normal raiding doesn't and isn't. I'm not sure it's possible they can but either way that doesn't fucking matter. They need something appropriate for them.

Not sure about that, if you want to improve, you need to try something you can't do. My problem with most of the arguments in favour of this is that they see being a better player as having a better salary or job. Isn't like that at all, majority of players just want to have something to distract themselves, just play, many would hate the interactions that LFR provides and would like to have their own group of laid backs, but when they try at normals they fail, so I can see how something easier that can be puggeable (means not 25) and maybe harder than LFR so you just have enough motivation to stay there instead of LFR can be a thing.

[Deleted]

No, the fact is that most people that buty the game, long, level their char, gear their char and TRY to do the normal raids fail miserably.

THAT is the fact. Normal raiding is too hard for the average player. T14 was finished by 20% of those that tried, even after 6 months and with item upgrades.

THAT is the situation, not the one that lives in your imagination.

Again stating stuff.But no explanation.What exactly makes raiding so hard?On top of that a personal attack,because that's the only way to give ''worth'' to your opinion,it's not like you have arguments right?

[Glorious Leader]

I commented on it because it brought the normal difficulty across to be on a level of difficulty that I don't believe it is.

Your belief in this matter is irrelevant. I hate to be blunt like that but I'm sorry. The level of difficulty is exactly that big a jump relative to what the player base can accomplish and what it's willing to stomach.

Look we've got this discussion backwards. Why is it that developers create hardmodes that ROUTINELY CATER TO VERY VERY SMALL MINORITIES but can't create multiple difficulty levels that would potentially cater to much more at the bottom end? Why does the 1% have two raid lvls but the bottom rest of the game get jack shit. You guys should be on your hands and knees begging for them to create fucking beer league.

[anaxie]

Those 3 have no logical arguments. I'm amazed this has gone on non stop for over 12 hours. I almost burst a few blood vessels reading him saying the same shit for 50 pages. There literally is no arguing with them and everyone should just leave them alone to play by themselves. Or maybe they can start a guild togehter and make their own Special pretend raid mode.

I'll bring the foam sword rack. Wouldn't want anyone to get a boo boo.

[nekobaka]

Yes and it's a very easy problem to solve. Build a difficulty that is appropriate for their "absolute top human capacity" or tune normals to be appropriate for that.

God if only all problems were that easy to solve. We put a man on the moon ffs...

Sure easy problem to solve once you can clearly define the abilities of your target audience. Who is it that you really design and tune the difficulty for, those who at least spend a few minutes skimming a class guide, makes an active effort in avoiding the bad, and has a willingness to do their best or the player who has the capability but instead chooses to not try?

I am going to call the act of CCing before a pull to be quite the trivial task for many but there was a lot of players who refused to do it and then there are those players who used AoE and cleaving abilities and broke CC because they did not want to make a conscious choice to use single target abilities or wanted to bloat the meters and effectively grief the group. The act of pressing a button to CC got thrown into the fire as being too hard not because it was difficult but because players didnt want to be bothered with it.

How does Blizzard get a gauge on what mechanics are actually difficult for players when a lot of the feedback is almost completely nonconstructive and consists of nerf boss X. Rarely will players break down where their problems are, the composition of their group, and the strategies they are trying to use. Usually the only places where you see this kind of constructive feedback are from the players who are seeking help from others and are trying to improve before calling out for nerfs.

[Glorious Leader]

Why do you feel the need in that first part to hysterically restate your opinion on the subject?
I didn't ask for your opinion,did I?I asked for practical arguments as to why you think that way.

''Educate'' myself?You're ''fucking tired''?
You think highly of yourself don't you?So now I should try to prove your opinions by doing your work and searching for arguments on some random thread?
Ultimately it doesn't matter that you explain to others why you think you're right?

Looks to me like you're a big smartass but when someone actually aks you for an explanation you can't provide shit.

But I did provide explanations. Go back and read what I said earlier in the thread. Read that forum post to. It explains EXACTLY WHAT THEY TEND TO HAVE TROUBLE WITH and why ToT normal ToT is so hard.

[Luko]

The don't HAVE to want to learn. They can just quit and play a game that was tuned for the level of enjoyment they expect out of a pass time.

Why is this even being restated? Is that not common sense?

Of course if they don't want to do something in a particular game they're going to go play something else. Right?

[Maelstrom51]

Dude you three people have been in this thread all day. If you spent this much time improving your raid you would be workinig on killing Heroic. Jin'rhok by now.

Why do you assume that we aren't on heroics?
As I said earlier in this thread, I personally don't have a problem with the difficulty. The problem is that bad players have no engaging content, not me.

I guess I have a sense of empathy, which you may be lacking?

[Glorious Leader]

Sure easy problem to solve once you can clearly define the abilities of your target audience. Who is it that you really design and tune the difficulty for, those who at least spend a few minutes skimming a class guide, makes an active effort in avoiding the bad, and has a willingness to do their best or the player who has the capability but instead chooses to not try?

I am going to call the act of CCing before a pull to be quite the trivial task for many but there was a lot of players who refused to do it and then there are those players who used AoE and cleaving abilities and broke CC because they did not want to make a conscious choice to use single target abilities or wanted to bloat the meters and effectively grief the group. The act of pressing a button to CC got thrown into the fire as being too hard not because it was difficult but because players didnt want to be bothered with it.

How does Blizzard get a gauge on what mechanics are actually difficult for players when a lot of the feedback is almost completely nonconstructive and consists of nerf boss X. Rarely will players break down where their problems are, the composition of their group, and the strategies they are trying to use. Usually the only places where you see this kind of constructive feedback are from the players who are seeking help from others and are trying to improve before calling out for nerfs.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=13#246

I mean even on the face of it your argument is basically calling for more difficulties not less. Yes it's hard to judge difficulty. Well why then is the solution to be more restrictive in the scope and range of difficulties available instead of introducing a broader array of content?

[anaxie]

So tell me makes ToT normal 10 so hard? What fights? What mechanics? Damage hurt bad isn't really an argument when you are running in circles throwing your hands in the air.