1. #2241
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    So I guess what you are saying is that most people are inherently lazy and motivated by the quick fix? That they are too stupid too realize when they are being suckered into some bullshit sense of achievement when they have in fact....done fuck all.
    Yes, absolutely. They want to feel special because most of them are not. Sociology 101.
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  2. #2242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No. What I'm saying is that people work hard all day and when they come home they have little time to invest to get their reward and "fix" out of this game and the game is now asking them to commit to do much more and spend more time to get less reward than they did before. The game is asking them to do more for less and they are by and large saying nope.
    They'd be happier playing a different game.

  3. #2243
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yes, absolutely. They want to feel special because most of them are not. Sociology 101.
    That's one way to look at it to I guess. This game is supposed to be escapism after all. Hadn't considered that to be honest but in the end it's the same result. The game no longer caters to this desire.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #2244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    So now Game of Thrones is not medieval fantasy? They have China represented there.
    Game of throne maybe but wow isn't "medieval fantasy"...

  5. #2245
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    You do know that there are other games right?
    yes and so do they. that's why they are leaving. the goal of the developers will and should be to stop them from leaving and if at all possible to bring some of them back. not sure if either is possible. Optomistic about it. We'll see.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #2246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    You are arguing semantics for the sake of it. You want to argue that pandas can fit into WoW because WoW is a blend of genres, but sorry, they still don't. They belong in a cartoon.
    They belong wherever they fit and the author decides. Warcraft is such place, a place of high fantasy and anthropomorphic races.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 06:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Game of throne maybe but wow isn't "medieval fantasy"...
    It's Garian that says it is, not me.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 06:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    They'd be happier playing a different game.
    Which is exactly what is happening and the reason of this thread.

  7. #2247
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    They'd be happier playing a different game.
    They were happy playing wow before but apparently that was horrible. Filthy casuals. To bad their money doesn't stink like them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #2248
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yes, absolutely. They want to feel special because most of them are not. Sociology 101.
    Interesting. When you take Sociology 201 you will further find out the same applies to people that point out that other folks aren't special.

  9. #2249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Interesting. When you take Sociology 201 you will further find out the same applies to people that point out that other folks aren't special.
    And my suspicion is very much that when the game makes others feel special a handful and select group of players all of a sudden start to fell less special. ohhhh children.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #2250
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's one way to look at it to I guess. This game is supposed to be escapism after all. Hadn't considered that to be honest but in the end it's the same result. The game no longer caters to this desire.
    Video games, especially RPGs, have ALWAYS been about escapism, as it basically implies simulating a different world with different rules and usually assume a role of an uncommon adventurer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Interesting. When you take Sociology 201 you will further find out the same applies to people that point out that other folks aren't special.
    What on Earth are you talking about?
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  11. #2251
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And my suspicion is very much that when the game makes others feel special a handful and select group of players all of a sudden start to fell less special. ohhhh children.
    Pretty much. "You guys can't feel special! You're not special. I'm special!"

    If only people could just focus on having fun - instead of being specialer than everybody else...what a crazy world that would be.

  12. #2252
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    If only people could just focus on having fun - instead of being specialer than everybody else...what a crazy world that would be.
    But people are not like that. Everything has to be compared to what the neighbour (or the buddy etc...) has.
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  13. #2253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    But people are not like that. Everything has to be compared to what the neighbour (or the buddy etc...) has.
    I'm not totally convinced that that applies to everybody, least of all the guy who plays for 4 or 5 hours a week and just basically ques up for dungeons and maybe does a daily or two. His exposure to others with gear is pretty minimal. I guess inside the dungeon he sees people. See but that guy isn't interested in making others feel less special, he's just interested in being a badass and looking cool and getting reward.

    I get the principle behind it 100% but i'm not sure it's exactly appropriate for casual players.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #2254
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's one way to look at it to I guess. This game is supposed to be escapism after all. HIvadn't considered that to be honest but in the end it's the same result. The game no longer caters to this desire.
    This is another point I've harped on for a while.

    The central value proposition of an MMO, I contend, is to deliver ego inflation in a social context. No one who plays the game is a world-saving hero in real life. Most players have lives that are as unexceptional as they come.

    Anytime the game tells you "no, you actually suck", it's working against this central value proposition. And I don't think the devs understand this. They've added a bunch of things that deflate the ego of the average player:

    -- Armory (you can now see how far behind you are)

    -- Rated PvP (ratings tell you, with depressing exactness, just where you are buried in the pile of mediocrity that is the player population)

    -- Finely sliced levels of PvE difficulty. These are the PvE equivalent of PvP ratings. Your "X out of Y" for the expansion is, in effect, your PvE rating. The more finely they slice it, providing challenge for everyone, the less the game can tell comforting ego-inflating lies about how good people actually are.

    The ego of the top players is properly inflated, but this is a kind of ponzi scheme. That inflation depends on the presence of a large cadre of lesser players who aren't getting the same ego inflation. This isn't sustainable.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #2255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    I was supporting you - but I may have failed at phrasing it.
    Ok cool lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The guy who plays two hours playing cod on his xbox get's more reward than the guy who plays two hours in this current iteration of warcraft. It has NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to do with sociability and I"m not sure exactly what gaming standards your using when the very developers who make wow don't have one.
    I never said it was about sociability... i gave an example of someone just wanting to drop into a game for a very short time and that they do not need to socialise. They click a menu and que... and thats casual gaming. They can socialise as well if they like, but the point is THEY DONT HAVE TO IN ORDER TO PLAY THE GAME.

    An MMO traditionally forces players to socialise in order to beat content... thats my point.

    Wow is arguably not even an MMO anymore. Its an online multiplayer game, where u dont have to interact with the other players if u dont want to and u can still progress as far as those who do interact. Exactly the same as XBox gaming online.

    My point is that Wows 'progress' over recent years has expanded the casual aspect of Wow at the expense of whats MMO about Wow.

    Ru surprised that the MMO crowd are moving elsewhere to look for their MMO?
    Last edited by mmoc978ad45763; 2013-05-11 at 05:29 PM.

  16. #2256
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    What on Earth are you talking about?
    Sorry about that, I was wondering if that might be too advanced for you, it'll be covered in detail in 201. Anyway, the basic idea is that there are many people who only get their sense of accomplishment by putting others down. Instead of actually elevating themselves to "specialness", they spend their time pointing out the non-"specialness" or "lessness" in others. "I'm special, not because of what I can do, but because I'm better than those guys".

    If they participated in an activity that only the top 15% could do, it would make them more or less special. But! if they could filter out the bottom 80% of that and now participate in an activity that only the top 3% can do, their sense of self worth shoots up.

    They are no better then they were when more people were doing the same thing as them, but by moving the bar up to make what they are doing more exclusive, they have artificially increased how special they feel.

  17. #2257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is another point I've harped on for a while.

    The central value proposition of an MMO, I contend, is to deliver ego inflation in a social context. No one who plays the game is a world-saving hero in real life. Most players have lives that are as unexceptional as they come.

    Anytime the game tells you "no, you actually suck", it's working against this central value proposition. And I don't think the devs understand this. They've added a bunch of things that deflate the ego of the average player:

    -- Armory (you can now see how far behind you are)

    -- Rated PvP (ratings tell you, with depressing exactness, just where you are buried in the pile of mediocrity that is the player population)

    -- Finely sliced levels of PvE difficulty. These are the PvE equivalent of PvP ratings. Your "X out of Y" for the expansion is, in effect, your PvE rating. The more finely they slice it, providing challenge for everyone, the less the game can tell comforting ego-inflating lies about how good people actually are.

    The ego of the top players is properly inflated, but this is a kind of ponzi scheme. That inflation depends on the presence of a large cadre of lesser players who aren't getting the same ego inflation. This isn't sustainable.
    I would add the community also serves to reinforce the destruction of the players ego routinely and some members take sick pleasure in it. Nothing makes me feel shittier about playing then assholes on forums who take apart my character and log and tell me that I'm terrible. It's kinda upsetting and this forum is bad for it. The official forums are probably bad to I don't know. You could also add mods like recount to that list. It shatters that illusion. It's interesting psychology though. My god what a viscious circle.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 05:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Ok cool lol




    I never said it was about sociability... i gave an example of someone just wanting to drop into a game for a very short time and that they do not need to socialise. They click a menu and que... and thats casual gaming. They can socialise as well if they like, but the point is THEY DONT HAVE TO IN ORDER TO PLAY THE GAME.

    An MMO traditionally forces players to socialise in order to beat content... thats my point.

    Wow is arguably not even an MMO anymore. Its an online multiplayer game, where u dont have to interact with the other players if u dont want to and u can still progress as far as those who do interact. Exactly the same as XBox gaming online.

    My point is that Wows 'progress' over recent years has expanded the casual aspect of Wow at the expense of whats MMO about Wow.

    Ru surprised that the MMO crowd are moving elsewhere to look for their MMO?
    No a traditional mmo forces players to commit vasts amount of time to get anything done. That's what makes it traditional. WoW would have died on the table if it was a traditional mmo. I'm not surprised that the wow crowd is leaving elsewhere and looking for another mmo because the game isn't catering to their desires anymore. Casuals are leaving by and large and it's because the game isn't really casual. See here's where you and I probably havea a disconnect. I consider makling palls and socializing in wow an experience ENTIRELY AIMED AT CASUALS. Now I agree that experience is missing but theirs nothing hardcore or particularly mmo centric about being social and getting buddies and pals along.

    WoW not being an mmo is an okay thing by me. And the more it tries to go back to being an mmo is the more it looses. Lot's of games have players socialise. Diablo 2 had me socialize with players and it was EXTREMELY casual. I play dota and am forced to play with others and I play it EXTREMELY CASUALLY. Hell league of legends is probably the most casual game on the planet and it forces you to socialise with players.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-11 at 05:40 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #2258
    Deleted
    Nothing to do with WoW, but great example to understand what is the market today. Saints Row IV the player is the President of the USA... with superpowers.

    Like I said before, the gaming paradigma is changing and if the gaming industry doesn't follow, it will crash and burn and NO ONE will win with this.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 06:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    WoW not being an mmo is an okay thing by me. And the more it tries to go back to being an mmo is the more it looses. Lot's of games have players socialise. Diablo 2 had me socialize with players and it was EXTREMELY casual. I play dota and am forced to play with others and I play it EXTREMELY CASUALLY. Hell league of legends is probably the most casual game on the planet and it forces you to socialise with players.
    Forcing to socialize is also wrong. That will do nothing but push players to single players on the countless places they can get them.

  19. #2259
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    Nothing to do with WoW, but great example to understand what is the market today. Saints Row IV the player is the President of the USA... with superpowers.

    Like I said before, the gaming paradigma is changing and if the gaming industry doesn't follow, it will crash and burn and NO ONE will win with this.

    awww yeaaa love saints row games. LOL hahahahah
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #2260
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This is another point I've harped on for a while.

    The central value proposition of an MMO, I contend, is to deliver ego inflation in a social context. No one who plays the game is a world-saving hero in real life. Most players have lives that are as unexceptional as they come.

    Anytime the game tells you "no, you actually suck", it's working against this central value proposition. And I don't think the devs understand this. They've added a bunch of things that deflate the ego of the average player:

    -- Armory (you can now see how far behind you are)

    -- Rated PvP (ratings tell you, with depressing exactness, just where you are buried in the pile of mediocrity that is the player population)

    -- Finely sliced levels of PvE difficulty. These are the PvE equivalent of PvP ratings. Your "X out of Y" for the expansion is, in effect, your PvE rating. The more finely they slice it, providing challenge for everyone, the less the game can tell comforting ego-inflating lies about how good people actually are.

    The ego of the top players is properly inflated, but this is a kind of ponzi scheme. That inflation depends on the presence of a large cadre of lesser players who aren't getting the same ego inflation. This isn't sustainable.
    Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

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