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  1. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    I know what you mean - it just seems like Blizzard have backed themselves into a corner with LFR.

    The original draw of raiding was to band together with a group of like-minded individuals and overcome a fairly difficult challenge (relatively speaking). LFR, as an introduction to raiding teaches players that they can sink a small amount of time into the game each week and walk out with decent gear. Moving from LFR to normal raiding means a time/effort commitment and, for a lot of people the gear-upgrade is a fairly inconsequential one.

    LFR just teaches bad habits. That you can kill bosses by zerging them... That you can earn gear by being half-AFK and, if you wipe then "here's a 5% bonus so you do better next time". If it was, say a tier behind normal content then maybe more people would put a bit of effort in to normal raiding, bolstering smaller guild numbers and giving raid leaders the opportunity to swap people in/out etc.

    I dunno, it's late and I'm ranting.
    LFR teaches bad habits, Nerfs teaches people to keep playing at a low level while downing bosses and clearing tier's. A lot of bad habits are formed when you know content will be nerfed eventually.

    Should i become a better player to clear content now. Or wait for nerfs? Lots of bad habits that are rewarded.

  2. #1062
    I think I only run with 2 or 3. Which I guess proves the point. But try looking at it this way - you're a relatively new player, you're interested in trying some normal mode raids. In order to meet the standard, think of the things expected of you:

    Download:
    DBM/BW
    Some kind of CD tracker or similar (not quite mandatory, but almost)
    Go to an online forum to read up on:
    Action Priority List
    Stat weights
    Gemming
    Reforging
    Talent Speccing
    Get as much gear as possible to off-set any lack of skill through: VP, LFR, coins, BoE drops (=gold), world bosses
    Get someone more knowledgable to check your WoL to see what you could improve on.
    What's WoL? World of Logs. It's this website that, via a 3rd party addon to you game, logs every single action from the combat logs of your entire raid and can be used as an analytical tool to see how people are performing, what abilities they're using, and as often as not, a way of flourishing your e-peen, or in another way, publicly shaming someone.

    The fact that something like WoL even exists is enough to boggle the mind sometimes.

    That's a solid list. And bear in mind that these are the things that are expected of you just to go into normal modes. Is it too much? Not for me, obviously not for you, but if I wasn't as...experienced/invested/masochistic as I am, I can very easily see how that might be enough to put someone off from even trying.
    Last edited by Sparkidy; 2013-05-17 at 02:57 AM.

  3. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    LFR just teaches bad habits. That you can kill bosses by zerging them... That you can earn gear by being half-AFK and, if you wipe then "here's a 5% bonus so you do better next time". If it was, say a tier behind normal content then maybe more people would put a bit of effort in to normal raiding, bolstering smaller guild numbers and giving raid leaders the opportunity to swap people in/out etc.
    I'm actually fairly incensed that LFR is teaching people who don't know any better strats that will wipe them on the normal version of the encounter. Durumu is case in point.
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  4. #1064
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    I think I only run with 2 or 3. Which I guess proves the point. But try looking at it this way - you're a relatively new player, you're interested in trying some normal mode raids. In order to meet the standard, think of the things expected of you:

    Download:
    DBM/BW
    Some kind of CD tracker or similar (not quite mandatory, but almost)
    Go to an online forum to read up on:
    Action Priority List
    Stat weights
    Gemming
    Reforging
    Talent Speccing
    Get as much gear as possible to off-set any lack of skill through: VP, LFR, coins, BoE drops (=gold), world bosses

    That's a solid list. And bear in mind that these are the things that are expected of you just to go into normal modes. Is it too much? Not for me, obviously not for you, but if I wasn't as...experienced/invested/masochistic as I am, I can very easily see how that might be enough to put someone off from even trying.
    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.

  5. #1065
    Mechagnome khatsoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    Bosses have too much hp.
    Raiders do under-average-calculated dps.

  6. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by khatsoo View Post
    Raiders do under-average-calculated dps.
    Which leads to healers going oom or having to heal a extra 2-3 minutes, if not more, of a fight leading to wipes. The longer the fight goes, the more chances for mistakes and wipes.

  7. #1067
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Making the game super easy or nerfed to the core isnt going to fix anything. People will not become better players, if anything they develop worse habits becoming even worse at the game. You cant kill something? Look at your WOL and see who is doing what numbers, Dps?Hps? Tanking. Who is standing in fire and so on then make the changes.
    People will not become better players. This is the key issue. It isn't going to happen, ever.

    Huge swathes of the potential raiding population will never become better players. The only thing being asked for is that this is recognised as the simple fact that it is and that those players are given some semi organised group content to do.
    Swap people out that arent performing or pull them aside and work with them. If they wont try to get better why would you want to gear them?
    Most raiders raid with friends (or they did until they got tuned out) their question to you would be - why on earth would you kick people you liked in favour of purple pixels? What the hell is wrong with you?

    I went to a guildies wedding last month, we've played together for 5 years and are very good friends. If the game gets tuned up and they can no longer perform, do you really expect me to just ditch them (or vice versa) - "oh thanks for sharing important parts of your one and only life with me, but now blizzard have tuned stuff up so fuck off out of my raid!" Its an MMO, matey, the point of it is social gaming.
    Nerfing does not fix anything and nerfing is the reason we are in this thread to begin with, people used to nerfs of content making them feel like raiders when in fact they probably shouldnt be raiding at all.
    I agree, content shouldn't be nerfed. It should launch already doable by the average.
    I am here because people think nerfing is the answer when it is not. People only become worse players each tier of content because they believe in their heads they are really good players because they cleared a tier with a 30% buff then the next tier starts with no nerfed content and guess what? It is too hard for them because they didnt have to get better to down bosses, they were carried by nerfs. Every tier is like this now.
    Which means every tier should start 30% easier.

    Before tot launched we had a one raid running full clears + a few HC modes and a second run almost clearing toes every week. Horridon (+summer) killed the 2nd raid and attendance is much lower than T14 accross the board. I've got people playing D3 just so they can still chat, but they can't be arsed coming to wipe over and over. These downward circles are common in medium level and lower level raiding guilds, especially on mechanic heavy fights.

    What happens is this - your raid learns mechanics. They get a few bosses in. Then one or two people are missing for a week or two and you have to draft in new guys who don't know the fights. Then you wipe all over again while the new guys learn the fights, basically restarting from scratch. For a lot of players who might have sunk 80 attempts into killing horridon the first time, the thought of wiping to him for yet another evening while the new guy learns means they don't want to raid that night. They turn up anyway but they aren't having fun any more. A few weeks of this and they quit raiding and just hang out instead.

    ....meaning you have to get even more new guys in. The ICC/DS model was/is ideal for mom and pop raiding guilds because there was always something you could do as a group depending on who you had on that night. Currently LFR doesnt need a guild and normals require amazing play and there is no other group content for average players to do together that they can't do on their own with less effort. Don't need to be grouped to do a scenario, HC dungeons are a joke and if you do group up it doesnt really change the experience. Challenge modes are great, but if you are average you are amost certainly are too busy doing dailies for actual gear instead.

    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.

  8. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, they're much harder. Maybe you could point me to the MoP equivalent of Ulduar's first boss (the vehicle fight)?
    The 1st boss in ToT on normal.
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  9. #1069
    You missed my point - I'm not saying it's hard or unachieveable, I'm saying it's daunting to suddenly have all these tools for improvement thrust at you. I can do the same thing, hooray for us. But we're not the kind of player that's being discussed here. I've played at a high-ish level in the past, and I have no doubt that I could again, if I wanted to spend less time with my family. I'm talking about the guy who might have cleared ICC or DS with the high nerfs, who's used to not having to put in a huge effort to succeed. His own problem? Sure. But this is what he's been taught by previous content. So to suddenly change the rules on him is a bit unfair, if you ask me. Comes down to "get better or quit" again really. It's just that the "quit" door is apparently becoming much more appealing than the "get better" one, with what's involved with getting better.

  10. #1070
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    People will not become better players. This is the key issue. It isn't going to happen, ever.

    Huge swathes of the potential raiding population will never become better players. The only thing being asked for is that this is recognised as the simple fact that it is and that those players are given some semi organised group content to do.


    Most raiders raid with friends (or they did until they got tuned out) their question to you would be - why on earth would you kick people you liked in favour of purple pixels? What the hell is wrong with you?

    I went to a guildies wedding last month, we've played together for 5 years and are very good friends. If the game gets tuned up and they can no longer perform, do you really expect me to just ditch them (or vice versa) - "oh thanks for sharing important parts of your one and only life with me, but now blizzard have tuned stuff up so fuck off out of my raid!" Its an MMO, matey, the point of it is social gaming.


    I agree, content shouldn't be nerfed. It should launch already doable by the average.


    Which means every tier should start 30% easier.

    Before tot launched we had a one raid running full clears + a few HC modes and a second run almost clearing toes every week. Horridon (+summer) killed the 2nd raid and attendance is much lower than T14 accross the board. I've got people playing D3 just so they can still chat, but they can't be arsed coming to wipe over and over. These downward circles are common in medium level and lower level raiding guilds, especially on mechanic heavy fights.

    What happens is this - your raid learns mechanics. They get a few bosses in. Then one or two people are missing for a week or two and you have to draft in new guys who don't know the fights. Then you wipe all over again while the new guys learn the fights, basically restarting from scratch. For a lot of players who might have sunk 80 attempts into killing horridon the first time, the thought of wiping to him for yet another evening while the new guy learns means they don't want to raid that night. They turn up anyway but they aren't having fun any more. A few weeks of this and they quit raiding and just hang out instead.

    ....meaning you have to get even more new guys in. The ICC/DS model was/is ideal for mom and pop raiding guilds because there was always something you could do as a group depending on who you had on that night. Currently LFR doesnt need a guild and normals require amazing play and there is no other group content for average players to do together that they can't do on their own with less effort. Don't need to be grouped to do a scenario, HC dungeons are a joke and if you do group up it doesnt really change the experience. Challenge modes are great, but if you are average you are amost certainly are too busy doing dailies for actual gear instead.

    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.
    You dont have to do anything. You choose what progression means to you and how far you go. You want to play with bad players then progression is not important, good for you, have fun. You want to progress, you make the changes needed. It is not a difficult formula.

    What is the average player? If people clear a instance in blue with some greens and others cant in all epics, what is the average?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkidy View Post
    You missed my point - I'm not saying it's hard or unachieveable, I'm saying it's daunting to suddenly have all these tools for improvement thrust at you. I can do the same thing, hooray for us. But we're not the kind of player that's being discussed here. I've played at a high-ish level in the past, and I have no doubt that I could again, if I wanted to spend less time with my family. I'm talking about the guy who might have cleared ICC or DS with the high nerfs, who's used to not having to put in a huge effort to succeed. His own problem? Sure. But this is what he's been taught by previous content. So to suddenly change the rules on him is a bit unfair, if you ask me. Comes down to "get better or quit" again really. It's just that the "quit" door is apparently becoming much more appealing than the "get better" one, with what's involved with getting better.
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.

  11. #1071
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.
    When I started playing in TBC, I was so confused about what I was supposed to do. My first character was a Human Priest, and I got conned into healing Deadmines at level 10 or 12. Needless to say, the experience was so traumatizing that I nearly quit.

    Later, I'd leveled a Hunter up to about 60ish or so, but I got bored. I missed healing (which I had done in other games, though nothing as complicated as this). So I rolled a Blood Elf Priest. I was still deeply confused about healing, and terrified of going into a dungeon after what had happened on my first Priest. But, I was in a guild with people I knew IRL (that's how I picked up the game, actually), and they had already trained me somewhat on my Hunter (remember when guilds taught you how to trap? How to control your pet? How to taunt trap before trap launcher?). One of the healers hooked me up with a Holy Pally in a small raiding guild that was on the same server.

    Highheals was the most flamoyant, fabulously gay Paladin I've ever run into. He dragged me and two friends through Scarlet Monastery wearing a pink dress. Just for funsies. He twisted my arm until I got Healbot so I could see everyone, he taught me about downranking. He taught me about healing priorities. He taught me to sit down and drink if I needed to. He pushed me to PvP to help me learn how to raid heal. And if it weren't for him, I never would have made it to 70. Because I was ready to give up, and I was so frustrated (remember, BC leveling...it sucked, especially as a healer, but even as Shadow!). He took me to my first raid (an insane AQ 20 when I was level 65, with like, 8 level 70s in raid gear). Seeing that raid...seeing how fast it was, how FUN it was, inspired me to keep pushing (and yes, he did help me with the last 5 levels).

    I was a noob. I was bad. I stood in things. I didn't know how to heal myself and the tank. I've stood in defile. I've failed the jump on Thaddeus and gotten hit by fire walls on Sarth. I failed at tornadoes, and fell through the web in Firelands. I dreaded meteors. I went insane on Yogg Saron. I failed at Penetrating Cold (and killed the entire healer group on my Shaman as, well, my Healing Spring got eaten by something). I stood in purple fire. I will say I never blew the raid up in Hyjal, tho. :-P But I've dispelled ionization in the pool.

    I never would have gotten to where I am if people didn't help me along the way. And it's true - you can get better at the game. But we all started as the confused noob who had no idea what they were doing. What took you 20 minutes to figure out took me 6 months as a healer. But there are some people who, for whatever reason, are never going to reach that point. There IS a skill cap, and some people hit it very quickly. That doesn't mean they're worthless (I mean, jesus christ, this is a game!), and it doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get as much enjoyment out of the game as hardcore raiders do.

    I thought Normal content was for raiders who, for whatever reason, either could not or would not do heroic content. Why are we treating it as though somehow hardcore progression raiders have a right to tell people stymied by the current progression in Normal ToT that they're bad, they should quit, they should get better, they should cut their friends loose (for holding them back), they should stop sucking, etc? If normal ToT is a joke for you, that's great - IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR YOU TO PROGRESS IN. GO DO HEROICS.

    Apologies for rambling. I hope that made some modicum of sense.
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  12. #1072
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Anyway.... those who get the problem get the problem and those who think this is all some attack on their favourite hobby are going to knee jerk react. Whatever.
    A lot of people understand what you're saying man, the simple problem is you can't tune content for everyone. If you have a terrible player or two in your raid team then you can't hold that against the majority of the normal-raiding population who want a semi-challenge.

    The only solution is for something like LFR>sub-normal>normal>heroic and there would still be people who'd complain about the difficulty of the sub-normal mode. It's great that blizzard have made raiding more accessible but it can't get to a point where there's no challenge involved at all :-(

  13. #1073
    When you choose friends that may not be that good over another possibly good player, you are choosing friendship over progression. So progression shouldnt really be that important right?
    Unless you want to raid with friends and have been for the better part of 3 years in this game... then all the sudden in MoP you cant because of the wacked out way the difficulty is set up... Why is it your position that people should have to choose? They didnt have to do one or the other in the last 2 expacs and now all the sudden now they do? F that... and thats what people are saying in droves.

    If you dont any of these things then maybe you should start and just maybe you will start to progress without more nerfing on top of this already nerfed content.
    Or maybe the content should be doable as it was the past 3 years and as the lead encounter designer said it should be? Silly I know!

    You cant see the logic?
    What logic? Nothing you have said is logical... choose your friends or raiding, choose to get better or quit... The "logical" thing would be to continue 10 man content as it was in the last 2 expacs in MoP.. they didnt and the raiding scene is suffering for it.

    A guild of not so great players are given a 30% buff and they clear content. Next tier there is no 30% to help them so they believe the content is once again too hard as this subject comes along every tier, every single tier.
    I havent been a part of said discussions starting at tier 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12, and 13 as you clearly were because you state for a fact that this happens every single tier!

    My casual friends tell me they didnt have time yet i see them on realid farming pets, mounts and running old content on alts. Leveling alts,yet they stil ask me questions every week on why content is too hard.
    I dont understand, your casual friends clearly think its too hard so they have went to other entertainments... isnt that the point?

    My experiences with trying to help friends obviously influences my views
    Understandable, why cant you see that your type of raiding just isnt what many want or can do, the Lead dude stated as much and yet you still argue the same thing over and over without trying to see anyone else's point of view... not even the dude that makes the raids!
    I mean are you really that narrow minded, seriously? Please dont take offense but I am totally in shock that someone that can play the game at the highest levels doesnt have the brain power to understand that their way of raiding is only 0.50% of all raiders and means nothing to the vast majority of raiders?

    I get your point that nerfing stuff doesnt teach things... why cant you see that making it too hard doesnt teach things either... as those people that just give up and unsub or just go do LFR arent learning a damn thing you want them to either...

    I was leveling a hunter and went into a hunter forum on mmo, 20min later i had my priority rotation in my action bars so i could learn it as i leveled. Adding the specials/spells as i leveled.I knew my reforge/gemming and picked a good talent.

    20min.

    I hit 90, threw on the gear i already had. Filled out the action bars with the rotation and away i went.
    and still you persist... How many average raiders even know what hunter forums on MMO are? You clearly have a high gaming IQ and the skill set to do these things in 20 mins.. the average person doesnt.

    I honestly dont know why I am even trying, your elitism is mindboggling, you truly have no idea that there are 200k or so raiders that dont fit your mind set. I say we burn em all!

    /sigh
    Last edited by jax; 2013-05-17 at 03:29 AM.

  14. #1074
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You dont have to do anything.
    It's not a case of having to do anything, it's a case of there not being anything to do.
    You choose what progression means to you and how far you go. You want to play with bad players then progression is not important, good for you, have fun. You want to progress, you make the changes needed. It is not a difficult formula.
    You can't "play with "bad" players if there is no content you can do together. Get it yet?
    What is the average player? If people clear a instance in blue with some greens and others cant in all epics, what is the average?
    The average is the middle of the bell curve. Go to LFR, find the middle values. Normal should be clearable with that level of DPS and healing.

    That the truly amazing can clear stuff in blues is completely and utterly irrelevent, designing wow around that is like designing supermarket doorways only midgets can get through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    A lot of people understand what you're saying man, the simple problem is you can't tune content for everyone. If you have a terrible player or two in your raid team then you can't hold that against the majority of the normal-raiding population who want a semi-challenge.
    Why not? I've been able to carry people in raids since molten core. Suddenly it's off the table. If i've had something for 8 years, I kindof expect it in year 9.
    The only solution is for something like LFR>sub-normal>normal>heroic and there would still be people who'd complain about the difficulty of the sub-normal mode. It's great that blizzard have made raiding more accessible but it can't get to a point where there's no challenge involved at all :-(
    Just detune dnormals so they are like DS/ICC. Drop heroics down a bit so they are doable by most people after that, and tell the "500 wipes is fun" crowd to fuck off to some korean MMO that requires you to kill 10,000 mobs per quest which is their natural home. All 5000 of themare never going to be happy anyway, so stuff em.

  15. #1075
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.
    Do you not realize that those casual guilds are training the future hardcore raiders that will keep your guild solvent? Do you think that hardcore raiders just spring to life, fully-formed with all the knowledge and skill? They come from casual guilds, and grow from there. Your guild won't take them as a noob. Neither will mine. Both of our guilds are recruiting from more casual guilds to fill our rosters. If those casual guilds - and the even more casual guilds that feed them - are not around, we are shit up a creek, dude.
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  16. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    When I started playing in TBC, I was so confused about what I was supposed to do. My first character was a Human Priest, and I got conned into healing Deadmines at level 10 or 12. Needless to say, the experience was so traumatizing that I nearly quit.

    Later, I'd leveled a Hunter up to about 60ish or so, but I got bored. I missed healing (which I had done in other games, though nothing as complicated as this). So I rolled a Blood Elf Priest. I was still deeply confused about healing, and terrified of going into a dungeon after what had happened on my first Priest. But, I was in a guild with people I knew IRL (that's how I picked up the game, actually), and they had already trained me somewhat on my Hunter (remember when guilds taught you how to trap? How to control your pet? How to taunt trap before trap launcher?). One of the healers hooked me up with a Holy Pally in a small raiding guild that was on the same server.

    Highheals was the most flamoyant, fabulously gay Paladin I've ever run into. He dragged me and two friends through Scarlet Monastery wearing a pink dress. Just for funsies. He twisted my arm until I got Healbot so I could see everyone, he taught me about downranking. He taught me about healing priorities. He taught me to sit down and drink if I needed to. He pushed me to PvP to help me learn how to raid heal. And if it weren't for him, I never would have made it to 70. Because I was ready to give up, and I was so frustrated (remember, BC leveling...it sucked, especially as a healer, but even as Shadow!). He took me to my first raid (an insane AQ 20 when I was level 65, with like, 8 level 70s in raid gear). Seeing that raid...seeing how fast it was, how FUN it was, inspired me to keep pushing (and yes, he did help me with the last 5 levels).

    I was a noob. I was bad. I stood in things. I didn't know how to heal myself and the tank. I've stood in defile. I've failed the jump on Thaddeus and gotten hit by fire walls on Sarth. I failed at tornadoes, and fell through the web in Firelands. I dreaded meteors. I went insane on Yogg Saron. I failed at Penetrating Cold (and killed the entire healer group on my Shaman as, well, my Healing Spring got eaten by something). I stood in purple fire. I will say I never blew the raid up in Hyjal, tho. :-P But I've dispelled ionization in the pool.

    I never would have gotten to where I am if people didn't help me along the way. And it's true - you can get better at the game. But we all started as the confused noob who had no idea what they were doing. What took you 20 minutes to figure out took me 6 months as a healer. But there are some people who, for whatever reason, are never going to reach that point. There IS a skill cap, and some people hit it very quickly. That doesn't mean they're worthless (I mean, jesus christ, this is a game!), and it doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get as much enjoyment out of the game as hardcore raiders do.

    I thought Normal content was for raiders who, for whatever reason, either could not or would not do heroic content. Why are we treating it as though somehow hardcore progression raiders have a right to tell people stymied by the current progression in Normal ToT that they're bad, they should quit, they should get better, they should cut their friends loose (for holding them back), they should stop sucking, etc? If normal ToT is a joke for you, that's great - IT WAS NEVER MEANT FOR YOU TO PROGRESS IN. GO DO HEROICS.

    Apologies for rambling. I hope that made some modicum of sense.
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It's not a case of having to do anything, it's a case of there not being anything to do.


    You can't "play with "bad" players if there is no content you can do together. Get it yet?


    The average is the middle of the bell curve. Go to LFR, find the middle values. Normal should be clearable with that level of DPS and healing.

    That the truly amazing can clear stuff in blues is completely and utterly irrelevent, designing wow around that is like designing supermarket doorways only midgets can get through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:18 AM ----------



    Why not? I've been able to carry people in raids since molten core. Suddenly it's off the table. If i've had something for 8 years, I kindof expect it in year 9.


    Just detune dnormals so they are like DS/ICC. Drop heroics down a bit so they are doable by most people after that, and tell the "500 wipes is fun" crowd to fuck off to some korean MMO that requires you to kill 10,000 mobs per quest which is their natural home. All 5000 of themare never going to be happy anyway, so stuff em.
    Ya and maybe you arent that good to begin with and you carrying someone was doable based on how easy the content is.

    The middle curve of LFR , where strats have no meaning? Then you apply that difficulty to a raid where there are strats? You are a genuis.

  17. #1077
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.
    How can you say something is easily doable when 75% of people fail at it ?

    lol

  18. #1078
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You are talking about a game that was limited on ways to learn your class. Now there is a massive amount of information available for any player that is at their fingertips in mere seconds. I started similiarly as you but played fairly well i guess because i didnt know until i ran with some good raiders and they said hey you are pretty good, you wanna join our guild, zero tolerance. I joined and have only raided progression since then.

    You are talking about a skill cap as people mention they dont even try to get better. There is a big difference between that and a skill cap.

    Someone saying that they can not do normals yet dont even know their own class is redundant, as how can you say how hard something is when you arent even playing the character that blizzard tuned the raid to.
    It's more that some of them will try to get better, and they will get as good as they can become. But there are always raiders - in every guild, if we're honest - who hit a point and either refuse or be unable to go further. Maybe they don't have the time for it. Maybe they get confused by it. Maybe they have some other thing that limits their ability to get better. Guilds used to be able to bring those people - who may have contributed in other ways (maybe they were good at strat but not execution, maybe they were a moral support for the guild, maybe they were the glue that kept their guilds together through thick and thin - and still see the normal content. Now they can't do that. You can't carry multiple unskilled people unless you are extremely talented (and on some fights it's just plain impossible). This is destroying guilds.

    And I honestly do not feel that Normals should be some kind of race, should be "important," or should be something you strut around going, "Oh man, I killed this on NORMAL and it was so hard!" If you want that, you should go heroic. Let the casuals have their playgrounds, ffs. :-\
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  19. #1079
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Which is why the harcore player is a better business model than a casual who quits because of a challenge. Quality who will stick around for years or quantity who quits easily.
    I'd suggest that an even better busines model still would be to soften up normal content so no-one takes the door. The hardcore crowd is unequivocally unaffected by a softening up of normal modes. You'll just smash through it in 2 weeks instead of 3 before moving onto heroics.

  20. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Do you not realize that those casual guilds are training the future hardcore raiders that will keep your guild solvent? Do you think that hardcore raiders just spring to life, fully-formed with all the knowledge and skill? They come from casual guilds, and grow from there. Your guild won't take them as a noob. Neither will mine. Both of our guilds are recruiting from more casual guilds to fill our rosters. If those casual guilds - and the even more casual guilds that feed them - are not around, we are shit up a creek, dude.
    Have you seen the interviews from the Titan development team? Mentioning that Titan will be the most hardcore game they have ever developed.

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