Megeara

[shadowboy]

Enchantment procs are rppm, so they can largely be ignored (all the extra hits in the world won't increase your enchant uptime--only extra true haste can).

The energy gain from a 2cp rupture would be less than the cost of a mutilate. The poisons range from 10-15sec in duration. The only 15sec ones are wound (you won't be using that) and paralytic (only a 20% chance of proccing instead of 65% for the other nonlethal poisons--of which only crippling lasts 12, which the boss is immune to, so your only bet for a nonlethal is a 10sec poison, meaning deadly is better anyway).

So that leaves only 6 rupture ticks while poisoned (not 7), for an expected energy income of 45 energy. The rupture will cost you 15 energy (it's not a 5-pointer so relentless strikes is not guaranteed), for an overall gain of 30 energy--a little more than half a mutilate.

[Sesshou]

30 energy at a cost of 2cp, not sure thats worth it even if you don't consider the auto attacks you miss on your actual target. Not that you can really discount the auto attacks because you do actually need to get that poison up or you get absolutely no energy from the rupture, so assuming there aren't any when you actually need there to be some seems wrong.

[theherecy]

If you do it right (redirect 2 combopoints, then switch immediately back) you might lose 3-5 autohits + 2 CP.

I'm not sure why you would lose anything with focus macros. Can anyone clarify?

[shadowboy]

I'm not sure why you would lose anything with focus macros. Can anyone clarify?

See Sesshou's post above yours. If you focus macro redirect-rupture while continuing to target the primary kill target, the rupture HAS to proc poison or else you will get 0 energy. Also, macro-targeting doesn't eliminate facing requirements. You'll still have to turn around to face the other head.

[Venant]

One question I have for H Megeara, since the heads do stay at 1% awhile after 'killed' if you have an ability that is close enough to go out, should you save up CPs once it gets below a certain % and then try to swap on to the next head with 10 CP + full energy (try to minimize capping). It is probably an effective DPS loss to blow 5 pt envenoms under 5% on a head.

[theherecy]

See Sesshou's post above yours. If you focus macro redirect-rupture while continuing to target the primary kill target, the rupture HAS to proc poison or else you will get 0 energy. Also, macro-targeting doesn't eliminate facing requirements. You'll still have to turn around to face the other head.

I'm aware of the poisons, but rupture and redirect don't have any positional requirements. The heads hitboxes also overlap, i.e. no movement is necessary.

[shadowboy]

Most of the damage from envenom is from envenom itself, NOT the buff. It's a dps loss to not envenom on the head when you can.

---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 12:37 PM ----------

I'm aware of the poisons, but rupture and redirect don't have any positional requirements. The heads hitboxes also overlap, i.e. no movement is necessary.

I said nothing about positional requirements. I said FACING requirements. Rupture requires the target be in front of you. That means you have to turn around to face the second head and thus you aren't attacking the current head, ergo you are still losing autoattacks on the kill target. Movement was never in question.

[theherecy]

BOTH heads can be in front of you, this was what I was saying. Just ran lfr to get a screenshot, http://postimg.org/image/4adxfg3hp/

Can switch between each with absolutely no downtime or moving.

The following is modeled with 20% crit and numbers based on my most recent attempt at megeara. The dmg numbers are also averaged based on the crit rate:
My weapon speed ~1 for each weapon, each strike has a 50% chance to proc DP. You can hit the other head anywhere between 0-1s (though a pro could monitor the swing hits and time this better), lets assume an average of 0.5s regardless for the proc of DP.

This means that you would expend 2 melee hits @ 12k and one wasted DP @ 24k, for a total of 48k initial loss. During the 15s of deadly poison, you would gain 60 energy from rupture ticks which equates to 28.8k in mutilate MH dmg, 13.4k in mutilate OH dmg and 20k in dispatch dmg (average again). This equates to 62k in damage. You do lose 15 energy on average from the rupture cost

Balancing them out, we have lost 48k but gained 62k for a net gain of 14k. The 2 combo points lost by rupturing are restored from the mutilate, which can also crit + dispatch. On average this allows for 2.76 using the following equation "2.4+(1.2*0.3)" which adds an extra ~18.4k in envenom dmg.

Total gain = 32.4k for that 15s period.

[shadowboy]

You only gain 30 energy from the 2 point rupture, you would only gain 45 with a 5-point rupture, you would never gain 60 energy from that rupture unless you stop to refresh DP on the second head, which is more attacks on the kill target lost. You get 12 sec @ 3.75 energy/sec, which is 45 energy, minus the 15 energy that the rupture cost (if used at 2 cps). Median number of melee hits it takes to get a DP proc without envenom buff is 1 hit though, 75% chance of getting DP up if you hit with both weapons once each outside of envenom buff, 87.5% chance during envenom buff.

[theherecy]

My assumption was based on the 2 piece, which most rogues do or should at least aspire to have. DP, according to the tooltip, has a 50% chance of proccing.

[Deleted]

Good debate that I've been wondering about myself. FYI I've added it to the sticky:

Q: Is it a single target DPS increase to multi-Rupture?
A: In short: no. On top of the facing requirements and the need to maintain DP on the secondary target for Venomous Wounds to proc, it's effectively energy neutral. The only time you want to multi-Rupture on single target fights is to get more on-demand burst.

[jtstormrage]

Redirecting 5 cps to the Frozen Head and Rupturing is a single target dps gain. However, if Redirect is on cooldown, then having to switch and build up cps (losing melee swing and poison proc in the meantime) on the secondary target is a very marginal single target dps gain, if any, and I would not do it.

EDIT: this applies to Megaera, where the damage to the second head is useless, and so I am only talking about the single target dps increase to the primary head. As to a more general debate about multi-dotting, and whether keeping Rupture and DP rolling on two targets is an overall dps increase where both targets require damage, it most certainly is.

[Deleted]

Redirecting 5 cps to the Frozen Head and Rupturing is a single target dps gain. However, if Redirect is on cooldown, then having to switch and build up cps (losing melee swing and poison proc in the meantime) on the secondary target is a very marginal single target dps gain, if any, and I would not do it.

EDIT: this applies to Megaera, where the damage to the second head is useless, and so I am only talking about the single target dps increase to the primary head. As to a more general debate about multi-dotting, and whether keeping Rupture and DP rolling on two targets is an overall dps increase where both targets require damage, it most certainly is.

It was the same debate back on Protectors of the Endless. I've only been doing it at 5 CP and with Redirect off CD, and it has "felt" like a DPS increase. But have we got any math to support it? From watching my own footage, it usually goes like this:

0.0 | Target switch + Redirect
1.0 | Rupture
1.5 | Target switch
2.0 | Off GCD

[Sesshou]

Redirecting 5 cps to the Frozen Head and Rupturing is a single target dps gain. However, if Redirect is on cooldown, then having to switch and build up cps (losing melee swing and poison proc in the meantime) on the secondary target is a very marginal single target dps gain, if any, and I would not do it.

EDIT: this applies to Megaera, where the damage to the second head is useless, and so I am only talking about the single target dps increase to the primary head. As to a more general debate about multi-dotting, and whether keeping Rupture and DP rolling on two targets is an overall dps increase where both targets require damage, it most certainly is.

Where have you been... no it isn't. And thats with the redirect... having to actually use cp builders to get the 5pt rupture is absolutely a single target dps loss. Honestly that is completely absurd, I don't see how you could say that using cp builders is a gain, no matter how small. You would need ~2 mutilates and 3 globals to get that off plus you have to refresh the poison on that target as it won't last as long as a 5cp rupture. But just the mutilates... you would spend 110 energy to do that... just think about that...

It was the same debate back on Protectors of the Endless. I've only been doing it at 5 CP and with Redirect off CD, and it has "felt" like a DPS increase. But have we got any math to support it? From watching my own footage, it usually goes like this:

0.0 | Target switch + Redirect
1.0 | Rupture
1.5 | Target switch
2.0 | Off GCD

If thats all you did, doubt it. You get what, 6 ticks of rupture with VW (the rest will do relatively little damage) which isn't going to refund you enough energy to even get those initial 5 cp back.

[theherecy]

It was the same debate back on Protectors of the Endless. I've only been doing it at 5 CP and with Redirect off CD, and it has "felt" like a DPS increase. But have we got any math to support it? From watching my own footage, it usually goes like this:

0.0 | Target switch + Redirect
1.0 | Rupture
1.5 | Target switch
2.0 | Off GCD

My maths is posted above, have a look for yourself. One thing to note, it is a small gain but the gains are much better noticed when you use 5CP and then refresh DP half way through.

[Kael]

I'd estimate the cost closer to 3 melee swings, rather than 2. You've got a 75% chance of having applied it in the first swing pair, but if that doesn't land, you're looking at another pair of swings to try to make poison land. By that point there's only a 1/16 chance it hasn't happened... but even estimating a 75% chance to use 2 and a 25% chance to use 4 for simple napkin math, you're at 2.50 swings to apply poison. It's possible this is theoretically still ahead, but the gains are SO marginal I really can't imagine it being useful. You're looking at using redirect (once a minute), target swapping specifically until poison has applied (twice a minute), and switching back for (to borrow your earlier math of 48 v. 62k altered to 60 v. 62k for the added .5 melee swings and .25 poison procs) a theoretical gain of 66.66 DPS at 4k per minute. I just don't see it - and that's assuming your redirect would have been useless otherwise.

That said, if you ARE using FoK for any reason, the redirect-rupture should pull ahead because you will NOT lose melee attacks applying/reapplying DP. In that event, the original modeling (pure energy gain) is true.

Sidenote, time off-target only has meaning because of lost swings - a pro timing target swapping to land melee hits... is saving nothing by targeting the primary target when he's not attacking.

For anyone curious about the margins - if my napkin math above is correct, and your rogue is running 160,000 DPS at the values we're testing with, using rupture is a 0.0416625% damage increase. For the original math - 7 times greater - the gain is .2916375%. Personally I'd argue that complicating a fight for a <.3% damage increase is a waste of effort, but I suppose some people think they could pull a gain out of that.

[Sesshou]

My maths is posted above, have a look for yourself. One thing to note, it is a small gain but the gains are much better noticed when you use 5CP and then refresh DP half way through.

I don't see how that makes it noticeably better. You are giving away even more auto attacks and poisons doing that and you are still getting barely enough energy to cover the combo points you are using to do that.

[theherecy]

I don't see how that makes it noticeably better. You are giving away even more auto attacks and poisons doing that and you are still getting barely enough energy to cover the combo points you are using to do that.

You use the same number of poison procs/melee hits proportional to energy gains etc. Though rupture costs 25 energy regardless of 2cp or 5cp ruptures, hence 5 cp ruptures "recovers" more of that energy.

[Sesshou]

You use the same number of poison procs/melee hits proportional to energy gains etc. Though rupture costs 25 energy regardless of 2cp or 5cp ruptures, hence 5 cp ruptures "recovers" more of that energy.

A 5cp rupture lasts 28 seconds though (with 2pc) so you have to switch back to reapply poison twice to keep it up. You're gonna need some math if you want to sell that as clearly better. In fact, I'm still skeptical that you end up with a dps gain at all.

[theherecy]

A 5cp rupture lasts 28 seconds though (with 2pc) so you have to switch back to reapply poison twice to keep it up. You're gonna need some math if you want to sell that as clearly better. In fact, I'm still skeptical that you end up with a dps gain at all.

I know, but the cost of rupture is constant through both approaches. So the longer you can keep it applied, the more you can offset that cost.