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  1. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If he expects more than 12 million subs, you'd be crack smokingly batshit insane to think it means a game catered to hardcore raiders. Because there are like 15k of them in the western hemisphere, max.
    I highly doubt Titan or any MMO will ever again reach WoW's peak
    There is just too much competition these days in that market

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 07:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Emi666 View Post
    . These players completely screwed WoW and the game was actually made harder for them and they were also given an extra lockout each week to help entice them to keep playing but the fact remains that in Asia there are so many F2P games released on such a high and regular basis with quite decent gaming experience and challenging game play that it made no financial sense for them to continue paying subs to WoW when they can play games that are F2P .
    dont people in Asia also pay by the hour instead of a monthly fee?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #1102
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    dont people in Asia also pay by the hour instead of a monthly fee?
    They do. I believe there are actual monthly subs, as well, but they are significantly cheaper than the US/EU subs.
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  3. #1103
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    The number of people experiencing this kind of lends itself to the fact a bigger problem than the overall difficulty ramp-up is that the curve is too large between Jin'rokh and Horridon. As stated previously there needs to be several fairly easy bosses in a new raid (and hey that's incentive to make them larger than 7 or 8 bosses lol) so guilds like yours and mine can down a few, feel good, and work on the later (and harder) bosses without getting burned out wiping on an early boss and feeling dejected because of it. I'd take the same overall difficulty with gradually harder bosses (with a few easy ones spread throughout after a particularly challenging boss) as well. Right now it absolutely kills morale to down Jin'rokh and hit a wall on Horridon every week.

    Like I said before, the ICC model was good enough because you were pretty much guaranteed to get at least to Saurfang, if not kill him. If Marrowgar had been as tough as Stone Guards were in T14, or how Horridon is now, guilds would have burned out in ICC as well.
    The problem is the players and not the game. I guess it's a trend to complain about getting stuck somewhere. I am not saying the bosses can't be tuned better, it's never perfect. But there are now so many ways to make encounters easier by yourself... Gear is so easy to obtain and you get to see the fights in LFR which is like experiencing encounters on the PTR for top guilds to get an advantage except LFR is unlimited.

    If you got stuck on Stone Guards you would have also got stuck on Feng. You apparently just got a tank in your guild that doesn't know how to taunt.
    I also don't see how Stone Guards was that much harder than Marrowgar... Maybe you raided ICC after nerfs or on 10 man which you obviously can't compare? There is really not a huge difference.

    "There is a big gap between LFR and normal". Seriously? Ofcourse there is. LFR is unorganized with 20% being afk and 50% being extremely bad and normal mode is organized raiding unless you run in without any preparation or communication. It's seriously all on you if you get stuck.

  4. #1104
    Normal modes are too hard and that is really killing the casual/noob raiding scene which is the majority of the game. In my opinion MOP is a little to tedious with all the dailies and farmville and nonstop new reps you have to grind that is probably contributing to the the burnout of a lot of people.
    Hi Sephurik

  5. #1105
    Quote Originally Posted by Emi666 View Post
    The high number drop recently is not down to the difficulty but heavily due to the Asian market of players dropping their subs. These players completely screwed WoW and the game was actually made harder for them
    You must be kidding. The game was made harder? The game is only made easier and easier and more casual and accessible.

    I agree with the rest of your comment.

  6. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If you read it properly, nowhere does it say that titan will be hardcore. It says Titans REACH will be hardcore.

    If he expects more than 12 million subs, you'd be crack smokingly batshit insane to think it means a game catered to hardcore raiders. Because there are like 15k of them in the western hemisphere, max.
    The game was never really being catered to anyone when it was released (referring to WoW). The game was just good and people played it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 04:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    I have to admit there are plenty of flaws in my game play and I am pretty bad at this game. I acknowledge that I have flaws but unlike some people I don't ask for content to be nerfed so I can do them. I would love to kill Lei Shen right now, but my skill level doesn't allow me to do that and I accept that fact.
    I just want to say don't stop believing with your profile name.... DON'T STOP BELIEVING!!!! YOU CAN KILL LEI SHEN IF YOU GET BETTER!!!!
    Hey everyone

  7. #1107
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    You must be kidding. The game was made harder? The game is only made easier and easier and more casual and accessible.

    I agree with the rest of your comment.
    Maybe if you are comparing current LFR to Wotlk normal modes.
    Hi Sephurik

  8. #1108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Maybe if you are comparing current LFR to Wotlk normal modes.
    The game is easier, nothing else to say. Raids were harder in WOTLK than this shit, maybe Naxx was a bit too easy but Ulduar and ICC were much harder, like fuck if I had the urge to skin random animals that went past me, I'd sure as hell do it when I read stuff like this... But I'm not a critter killer.
    Hey everyone

  9. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    The game is easier, nothing else to say. Raids were harder in WOTLK than this shit, maybe Naxx was a bit too easy but Ulduar and ICC were much harder, like fuck if I had the urge to skin random animals that went past me, I'd sure as hell do it when I read stuff like this... But I'm not a critter killer.
    ICC was very easy on Normal. Ulduar had varying levels of difficulty, but was an open-concept raid where you could choose where you wanted to go, and bosses could be skipped/ignored. ToC was similarly very, very easy on Normal.
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  10. #1110
    Quote Originally Posted by NRL1515 View Post
    @ Emi666 -
    You guys are terrible. You haven't cleared 12/12HC yet? Waiting for people to get those last few upgrades? If you were truly pro, you'd already be in there killing bosses with the gear you have. Your raid members just need to get better and watch a few videos - not waiting for the rest of the group to hold their hands. It's not about gear, it's about skill.

    It doesn't feel so good, does it?

    Why is it so hard for you guys to look at things from other people's perspective? What happened to your empathy? Don't you want as many people as possible to enjoy the things you do? Right now, that's not happening. Right now there is a mode for people who want to be and truly are the best at this game: Heroic mode. There is a mode for people who cannot commit to an organized raid in any way, shape, or form: that is what LFR is for. Blizzard used to have a mode for people to get together in a tight-knit group based on average (See, there's that 'average' word again) skill level. But not this expansion.

    I mean, if you just glance at the numbers from whatever source you choose, they all say the same thing. Numbers are dropping. Is it caused by the difficulty being too hard? Who knows. There may very well be more than one cause. But for people to openly take a stance on a possible solution out of selfishness and a feeling of exclusivity is beyond me.

    If all of a sudden, after 4ish years or so, they decide that they weren't reaching the people with normal mode they were targeting, at least have the decency to explain to your customers 'Hey, with this mode we're changing it so that it no longer means what it used to mean', I'd be okay with that. I'd be relegated to LFR, and that's that. However, in the interview with IH, he notes that there was a group that wanted a mode that currently wasn't being served by the modes they have in place now.

    One could infer that he was referring to 'casual' raiders and normal mode, as that would probably be the most logical inference. But, those Blizzard personnel people, they are sly with their language and they say things without really saying anything.
    Normal didn't really get much harder the average player skill just dropped. And no wonder when you can faceroll everything up to normal mode. And I am not just trying to be funny by using the word faceroll, I mean you can literally faceroll leveling, 5 man dungeons and LFR.

    You got your empathy in the last couple of years when they butchered this game for "the majority with the other perspective".
    Blizzard introduces LFR for people who don't have time but want to see the content. But what happened to your empathy?

    There is also a big difference in trying to play better or at your best and constantly complaining on a forum about how things are too hard for you while you are obviously not even trying while you are getting help from so many people (just look at all the guides on the internet). Why would anyone need to empathize with that? You are getting everything you need handed to you and you complain then someone says something about it and you tell him to empathize...

  11. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    ICC was very easy on Normal. Ulduar had varying levels of difficulty, but was an open-concept raid where you could choose where you wanted to go, and bosses could be skipped/ignored. ToC was similarly very, very easy on Normal.
    ICC easy on normal... Yeah like the first 4 bosses but the rest wasn't exactly faceroll. After the first 4 the difficulty level definitely started to rise pretty fast, PUGS would probably down the next 2 bosses at max (you get the occasional amazing PUG that gets farther but that was rare). You needed a guild to progress in that instance because if you cleared all of it minus the last boss then you were in for a big surprise. Lich King didn't take shit, he would throw you around like it was his god-given right. He'd show you who daddy was because that was just what the boss was, a minority finished Lich King before the nerfed the shit out that place.
    Hey everyone

  12. #1112
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    ICC was very easy on Normal. Ulduar had varying levels of difficulty, but was an open-concept raid where you could choose where you wanted to go, and bosses could be skipped/ignored. ToC was similarly very, very easy on Normal.
    In what universe is this? You were raiding 10 man?

    LK normal was easy? The top 500 25m guild I was in who finished all hardmodes wouldn't really agree with your statement.

  13. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    ICC easy on normal... Yeah like the first 4 bosses but the rest wasn't exactly faceroll. After the first 4 the difficulty level definitely started to rise pretty fast, PUGS would probably down the next 2 bosses at max (you get the occasional amazing PUG that gets farther but that was rare). You needed a guild to progress in that instance because if you cleared all of it minus the last boss then you were in for a big surprise. Lich King didn't take shit, he would throw you around like it was his god-given right. He'd show you who daddy was because that was just what the boss was, a minority finished Lich King before the nerfed the shit out that place.
    >.>

    On my realm, pugs routinely cleared ICC on normal, and several did multiple heroic encounters. I regularly did GDKP pugs where we cleared 5-6 heroic bosses, plus Lich King. I ran a pug on an RP server that had no problem going 6/12 normal 10, with people in fairly awful gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    In what universe is this? You were raiding 10 man?
    I did 10 man alt runs on the weekend before I put my foot down and refused (silly guild), but no. My first 10 man guild wasn't until DS. I was firmly 25 man from BC to the middle of Cata.

    LK normal was easy? The top 500 25m guild I was in who finished all hardmodes wouldn't really agree with your statement.
    As I said above, on my realm at the time, we routinely had pugs clearing the instance and doing multiple heroics. Mine was not the only server like this.
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  14. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    Normal modes are too hard and that is really killing the casual/noob raiding scene which is the majority of the game. In my opinion MOP is a little to tedious with all the dailies and farmville and nonstop new reps you have to grind that is probably contributing to the the burnout of a lot of people.
    http://www.wowprogress.com/

    Numbers look quite normal.

    I agree that there is a huge gap between LFR and normal. That doesn't make normal too hard. And as stated, LFR is meant for people who have no time for normal raiding with a guild so I don't really see a reason why the gap needs to be smaller.

  15. #1115
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/

    Numbers look quite normal.

    I agree that there is a huge gap between LFR and normal. That doesn't make normal too hard. And as stated, LFR is meant for people who have no time for normal raiding with a guild so I don't really see a reason why the gap needs to be smaller.
    Primarily because there are people in between LFR and Normal level of skill who are being shut out by the current environment. Happily, recent comments by the devs lead me to believe the situation will be rectified by the end of the expansion.
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  16. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    >.>

    On my realm, pugs routinely cleared ICC on normal, and several did multiple heroic encounters. I regularly did GDKP pugs where we cleared 5-6 heroic bosses, plus Lich King. I ran a pug on an RP server that had no problem going 6/12 normal 10, with people in fairly awful gear.



    I did 10 man alt runs on the weekend before I put my foot down and refused (silly guild), but no. My first 10 man guild wasn't until DS. I was firmly 25 man from BC to the middle of Cata.



    As I said above, on my realm at the time, we routinely had pugs clearing the instance and doing multiple heroics. Mine was not the only server like this.
    That doesn't make ICC normal easier than MSV normal. Things just changed.

  17. #1117
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    Lets do a quick recap of the story so far...

    Tot normal/HC has the lowest participation rate in a very long time. Even then, until they nerfed horridon that participation rate was largely confined to killing jinrokh (a fairly easy boss that nevertheless contains a few one-shot-the-raid mechanics) this is after a tier 14 whereupon the vast majority of players (75%) who started raiding in MSV never got past garalon in hof. This was after they got stuck on elegon in MSV for a month. This assumes they got past stone guards, by no means a certainty given how stupidly complicated it is.

    However, Tot LFR has been a roaring success (Durumus invisible maze of doom and lei shens house of flying pugger insults aside) with millions sleepwalking through it, collecting loot as they press their aoe button over and over while watching whatever people watch on TV these days. The gap between LFR and normal mode is more like a chasm, say casual raiders (some of whom raided DS HC and who now can't raid with their friends at all other than LFR.) Sites like wowprogress confirm that raider attrition is on a scale unseen since TBC. However, unlike TBC wow is no longer attracting new subs like flies on shit and overall sub numbers are down. Very down. 1.8 million adrift on the success of Dragonsoul, in fact.

    In response to this, blizzards lead encounter designer comments that there is a group of people with no raiding content that they can realistically clear and this isn't the best situation for friends and family guilds who don't remove players when they aren't amazing at the game i.e. people who aren't sociopathic in their pursuit of pixels and the mainstay of wows population.

    The forum response to thse undeniable facts is thus

    "Stfu noob, l2play."

    and

    "Me and my hardcore raiding buddies cleared everything last week, therefore my anecdote > all the objective numerical data."

    Oh and let us not forget

    "You only have to use website x, y and z, then spend f hours on the dummy, then use website a, b and c to make sure your gems and reforges are all ok and then you'll be able to perform adequately. Not perform well mind you, you'll only be perform as expected if you do those things, just do all of that merely so that you won't be called useless by me and my hardcore chums. If you don't automatically know all these things then you suck and you should stop playing right now. Loser."

  18. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Primarily because there are people in between LFR and Normal level of skill who are being shut out by the current environment. Happily, recent comments by the devs lead me to believe the situation will be rectified by the end of the expansion.
    Ofcourse there are. LFR requires no skill at all. So it's not any different than before LFR.

    There are also people who are between normal and heroic level of skill. It sucks, deal with it.

  19. #1119
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    That doesn't make ICC normal easier than MSV normal. Things just changed.
    Um, actually, yes it does. You see, I could pug ICC normal on 10 or 25 man. When was the last time you saw a 25 man pug? I'm on a high population server now, and I still only rarely see successful 10 man MSV pugs, and only if they're primarily filled with raiders who grossly outgear the content.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 03:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    Ofcourse there are. LFR requires no skill at all. So it's not any different than before LFR.

    There are also people who are between normal and heroic level of skill. It sucks, deal with it.
    Those players had an option to raid in previous expansion. That option has dried up for them. These are players that hardcore guilds need, though I get the feeling from your posts that you would be happy if they all just quit and left. Sadly, if that did happen, hardcore guilds would die rather quickly. Hardcore guilds don't recruit the bulk of their raiders from other hardcore guilds. They recruit from less progressed, more casual guilds. And those guilds recruit from still less progressed, more casual guilds. When the guilds at the bottom start dying out, it causes a chain reaction from the bottom to the top.

    Essentially, you're advocating cutting the legs out from under hardcore guilds, and I don't think you've quite grasped that yet.
    Last edited by TirielWoW; 2013-05-17 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Forgot how to spell at 4am
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  20. #1120
    I think the difficulty of ToT is fine, I do believe however that the scaling is wrong. The difference between Jin and Horridon is too big, while after Horridon there is Council(which they nerfed to the ground to the point it's not funny anymore). The last 4 bosses(except Lei Shen), boss 8-11 are all relatively easy, while in the middle there are more problematic bosses like Durumu.

    Nerfing normal modes would mean a guild like mine(3x 2.5 hours a week) would clear a raid like ToT in 1 or 2 weeks instead of the 4 it took us now, and after that we would hit the wall that is heroic. I don't think that's a good idea at all. a 10 man raid, easier than normal but brain-required, only for premades, would seem a better idea for me then.
    Last edited by Viriel; 2013-05-17 at 08:55 AM.
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