Ret / Unholy / MW

[Bonkura]

I'm temped to disagree with you in a lot of points concerning ret:
1) rets offhealing is miles stronger then ench - they get way better heal then ench free of cost every 3d judgement (and since most are stacking haste cd on it is damn low) that they can follow easilly with WoG,
2) their teammate propection is superior to ench is every way since 1 clutch BoP can easilly save your healer from inevitable death, BoS is insane too serving as both a dmg decrease for trained target or out of cc card for a healer
3) BoF is extremly strong too for both healer propection and DK mobility since ret himself can cleanse movement imparing effects of himself (and that opens DK to picking chillblains serving as permaslow since asphyxiate isn't that needed with rets own short cd stun)
4) purge isn't really needed since dk pretty much spam BB and IT providing constant dispell and decease spread whille doing better dmg against higher armor classes then using festering strike
5) ench is 1 time burst per arena match class whille ret can easilly blow cds right away since they'll be up shortly after
6) rets burst is insane, fully geared it's not unseen off droping 300k in 3 gcd
7) enchs generally will have stronger dmg reduction then rets come next patch, but... against plently of teams bubble is a 100% lifesaver (and if you've priest healer then there's still lots of stuff to fall back on like PS and VS.
8) Generally combination of good dk and ret and priest can setup insane cc chains with dark simed cc, stun, fears, aoe disorient. With setup preassure potential i easilly see half games ending in first dark simed cc followed by hoj into silence.

Imo for ench preferable partner would be rogues with their strong lockdown, together they'll be able to peel from priest better and will be caster cleaves bane, as for dk/priest i don't see a better addition then ret. But one thing for sure - MW don't fit this setup as good as priest, not even close.

wait, is there an enchanter class now? and what's BoP, BoF, BoS? enchanter abilities?

[Ultima]

English isn't his first language (and possibly dyslexic?).

Ench = Enh = Enhancement.

Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom and Blessing of Sacrifice are from the Ret Paladin's toolkit.

[Valedus]

I'm temped to disagree with you in a lot of points concerning ret:
1) rets offhealing is miles stronger then ench - they get way better heal then ench free of cost every 3d judgement (and since most are stacking haste cd on it is damn low) that they can follow easilly with WoG,
2) their teammate propection is superior to ench is every way since 1 clutch BoP can easilly save your healer from inevitable death, BoS is insane too serving as both a dmg decrease for trained target or out of cc card for a healer
3) BoF is extremly strong too for both healer propection and DK mobility since ret himself can cleanse movement imparing effects of himself (and that opens DK to picking chillblains serving as permaslow since asphyxiate isn't that needed with rets own short cd stun)
4) purge isn't really needed since dk pretty much spam BB and IT providing constant dispell and decease spread whille doing better dmg against higher armor classes then using festering strike
5) ench is 1 time burst per arena match class whille ret can easilly blow cds right away since they'll be up shortly after
6) rets burst is insane, fully geared it's not unseen off droping 300k in 3 gcd
7) enchs generally will have stronger dmg reduction then rets come next patch, but... against plently of teams bubble is a 100% lifesaver (and if you've priest healer then there's still lots of stuff to fall back on like PS and VS.
8) Generally combination of good dk and ret and priest can setup insane cc chains with dark simed cc, stun, fears, aoe disorient. With setup preassure potential i easilly see half games ending in first dark simed cc followed by hoj into silence.

Imo for ench preferable partner would be rogues with their strong lockdown, together they'll be able to peel from priest better and will be caster cleaves bane, as for dk/priest i don't see a better addition then ret. But one thing for sure - MW don't fit this setup as good as priest, not even close.

Watch Vanguards play. He honestly spends probably 50% of his globals healing or trying to stay alive, an barely succeeds sometimes. Also, I don't have my shammy at 90 yet, but healing maelstrom glyph is pretty nasty from what I've faced.
Out of CC card on BoS? That's odd... a smart grounding will do the same thing, much more often. BoP really isn't that much better than a class with CC's.
Enhance has a permaslow, and allows the DK to grab asphyxiate... hm.
Elemental Mastery actually has less of a CD than Wings and Holy Avenger, the burst is comparable, an enhance does stronger consistent.
You just said disease spread and aoe disorient in the same post, also ark simmed CC. Do you realize that any non-clone, non-stun(good luck dark simming an instant cast, the person would have to be pretty stupid) will get broken by the DK's diseases?
How is a Ret better against a caster than a feral? Feral can just powershift novas and feral charge for every blink. Feral continues its damage while CC'd. Stealth openers. More CC. Just as scary burst. Also getting buffed. Harder target to focus kill.

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 10:58 AM ----------

I don't get how people are underestimating how strong DK/ret/healer will be next patch, especially with a disc. First off several ppl have mentioned asfixate when clearly strang would be stronger in this comp. HoJ into strang on a healer is proly a kill without good peels and you can do this every minute. The ret brings so many tools like BoP,freedom,sac,off heals to help his healer. Mabey this won't be a tier 1 comp, but I think tier 2 for sure. It will struggle against caster cleaves a bit though

Do you play a Ret paladin? Have you played it this expansion? Damage % isn't the issue in PvP. It's how the specs damage is split up (~60-70% of it comes during CD's, no jokes) and without bubble you explode. That Fist - Strang will require the paladin to have cooldowns up and not get peeled a single time. Also, in theory, next patch nerfing pvp power won't let you kill someone in 3 seconds.

There are a bunch of better classes for the slot than Ret. Hell, why not a hunter? Even with 5.3 nerfs, they have a freedom that is arguably just as strong as Ret's, stronger consistent damage, and slightly less burst than 5.2. There's no BoP, but there are scatter traps and concussive shots.

[Nyaldee]

Watch Vanguards play. He honestly spends probably 50% of his globals healing or trying to stay alive, an barely succeeds sometimes. Also, I don't have my shammy at 90 yet, but healing maelstrom glyph is pretty nasty from what I've faced.
Out of CC card on BoS? That's odd... a smart grounding will do the same thing, much more often. BoP really isn't that much better than a class with CC's.
Enhance has a permaslow, and allows the DK to grab asphyxiate... hm.
Elemental Mastery actually has less of a CD than Wings and Holy Avenger, the burst is comparable, an enhance does stronger consistent.
You just said disease spread and aoe disorient in the same post, also ark simmed CC. Do you realize that any non-clone, non-stun(good luck dark simming an instant cast, the person would have to be pretty stupid) will get broken by the DK's diseases?
How is a Ret better against a caster than a feral? Feral can just powershift novas and feral charge for every blink. Feral continues its damage while CC'd. Stealth openers. More CC. Just as scary burst. Also getting buffed. Harder target to focus kill.

In current meta both enhs and rets are both underdogs so nothing surprising with them strugling. Also i don't see enhs doing better in current meta so dunno what's your point with vanguards stream is.

With increased coefficients on hybrid healing, significant nerfs to top classes, global pvp power nerf i think rets will have an easier time staying alive. Also you completly missed one of my core points - healer protection where ret exel compared to enh. And i seriously doubt that enh/dk can outzerg healer kill setups. Elemental mastery is nowhere near ret avenging wrath+holy avenger, enh need ascendance to rival retri burst.

Also what's wrong with decease spread, aoe disorient and dark simed cc? If healer keeps distance then hoj into disorient will force trinket (same as dark sim), you can drop dark simed cc on healers teammate if you're nuking healer, couple sec disorient between decease ticks can secure you a kill. Also decease spread is 10 yards + nothing stops dk from festering strike as rune dump if he doesn't want to spread dots. Besides you're making it look like dark sim is hard to use whille any proper dk will have 3 macroses ready to take what he needs during cast time (although ret/dk can easilly land a kill without it too).

Hunt+dk will be unable to peel from squishy healer too, that's why that combo is well known for playing with holy pall who can last on cds for a whille.

Ret dmg buff will partly offset pvp power nerf so i still expect their burst to be through the roof. Same goes for ehs. Different opinions are different but i don't see enhs being more powerfull then rets overall and taking priests squishiness into account cleaves can opt for killing priest instead of dealing with ench/dk since both can't offer much peeling.

[Senathor]

If you're aiming to kill healers I suggest you try to line up HoJ > Strang. If you're going for slightly longer games where you might be in need of peels your DK should probably spec into Asphyxiate for peels, just make sure you don't DR your stuns in that case.

[kosechi]

I'm temped to disagree with you in a lot of points concerning ret:
1) rets offhealing is miles stronger then ench - they get way better heal then ench free of cost every 3d judgement (and since most are stacking haste cd on it is damn low) that they can follow easilly with WoG,
2) their teammate propection is superior to ench is every way since 1 clutch BoP can easilly save your healer from inevitable death, BoS is insane too serving as both a dmg decrease for trained target or out of cc card for a healer
3) BoF is extremly strong too for both healer propection and DK mobility since ret himself can cleanse movement imparing effects of himself (and that opens DK to picking chillblains serving as permaslow since asphyxiate isn't that needed with rets own short cd stun)
4) purge isn't really needed since dk pretty much spam BB and IT providing constant dispell and decease spread whille doing better dmg against higher armor classes then using festering strike
5) ench is 1 time burst per arena match class whille ret can easilly blow cds right away since they'll be up shortly after
6) rets burst is insane, fully geared it's not unseen off droping 300k in 3 gcd
7) enchs generally will have stronger dmg reduction then rets come next patch, but... against plently of teams bubble is a 100% lifesaver (and if you've priest healer then there's still lots of stuff to fall back on like PS and VS.
8) Generally combination of good dk and ret and priest can setup insane cc chains with dark simed cc, stun, fears, aoe disorient. With setup preassure potential i easilly see half games ending in first dark simed cc followed by hoj into silence.

Imo for ench preferable partner would be rogues with their strong lockdown, together they'll be able to peel from priest better and will be caster cleaves bane, as for dk/priest i don't see a better addition then ret. But one thing for sure - MW don't fit this setup as good as priest, not even close.

1. it is stronger than it was in 5.0 after they gutted pvppower for hybrids. but its not as strong as it was in cata, and its not where nearly strong enough to justify ret having such bad defensives.
2. their team mate protection is nice, unfortunately, a ret's team mates never get targeted. never ever. the ret is always the kill target. the problem is that ret can't benefit from the vast majority of it's utility. its magic dispel can't be used on itself, its healing is vastly reduced on itself, it can't BoP itself without locking itself out of bubble which is its only real tool to reduce pressure.
3. freedom is nice. but see above, you will almost always be using it on yourself
4. i'll give you dk's purging, though i've actually seen very few using it. but tremor is why shamans are so overvalued right now. tremor and grounding allow an enhance shaman to reduce incoming control a lot more then a ret is capable of.
5. enhance's sustained pressure is better than ret's and they have more utility. neither spec is strong, but enhance IS stronger than ret.
6. it is. but rets are also the easiest melee to control, by far, they are the only melee that dosn't have a short cd limited cc break.
7. bubble is a life saver once. they will swap to someone else for 8 seconds, then back to the paladin. less if it gets dispelled. bubble is by far the worst defensive cooldown in the game because its resulted in ret's defensive capacities being entirely balanced entirely around a dispellable 5 minute cooldown.
8. they can. ret/dk/priest has been very strong comp since wolk based around how much instant cc it has, but its not strong right now due to how fragile the ret is.

[Bonkura]

English isn't his first language (and possibly dyslexic?).

Ench = Enh = Enhancement.

Blessing of Protection, Blessing of Freedom and Blessing of Sacrifice are from the Ret Paladin's toolkit.

do you mean

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1022
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1044
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=6940

?

[prestilence]

No, the thing you want to do is have the DK go glyph of strangulate. Make focus macros for deathgrip, mind freeze, strangulate, Leap, Gnaw.

1. Spread diseases, force trinkets, then line up a focus kill on a dps. First, have the paly use HoJ on healer (focus macro so he can still dps the kill tgt)
2. Strangulate the next cast (improved, 2 sec additional silence)
3. focus death grip the healer, while Dpsing the kill tgt
4. use 4pc bonus (2 grips) to prevent the next cast to line up for (5.)
5. Focus Gnaw (after gnaw, immediately move ghoul away from healer)
6. Focus mind freeze healer (while still dpsing kill tgt with the ret) on next cast
7. since you re-positioned the ghoul, at this point he will likely be mutated, then use Leap (stun)
8. try to keep a NS effect up 100% on your kill target

There is literally NOTHING that will counter that line up. maybe a mage iceblock with cold snap.
But if you practice this lineup, and have a good healer, there will never be an issue if you continue this the whole fight.

Also since you have a MW healer, use paralyze at the end, and then re-do HoJ.. repeat anti healer rotation (1-8)

[Hand Banana]

1. it is stronger than it was in 5.0 after they gutted pvppower for hybrids. but its not as strong as it was in cata, and its not where nearly strong enough to justify ret having such bad defensives.
2. their team mate protection is nice, unfortunately, a ret's team mates never get targeted. never ever. the ret is always the kill target. the problem is that ret can't benefit from the vast majority of it's utility. its magic dispel can't be used on itself, its healing is vastly reduced on itself, it can't BoP itself without locking itself out of bubble which is its only real tool to reduce pressure.
3. freedom is nice. but see above, you will almost always be using it on yourself
4. i'll give you dk's purging, though i've actually seen very few using it. but tremor is why shamans are so overvalued right now. tremor and grounding allow an enhance shaman to reduce incoming control a lot more then a ret is capable of.
5. enhance's sustained pressure is better than ret's and they have more utility. neither spec is strong, but enhance IS stronger than ret.
6. it is. but rets are also the easiest melee to control, by far, they are the only melee that dosn't have a short cd limited cc break.
7. bubble is a life saver once. they will swap to someone else for 8 seconds, then back to the paladin. less if it gets dispelled. bubble is by far the worst defensive cooldown in the game because its resulted in ret's defensive capacities being entirely balanced entirely around a dispellable 5 minute cooldown.
8. they can. ret/dk/priest has been very strong comp since wolk based around how much instant cc it has, but its not strong right now due to how fragile the ret is.

I could be wrong, but I think you are looking at ret through the stereotypes and now how they are. Ret is not always the kill target, its a valid one but letting a dk free roam in unholy pres shouldnt go unpunished. Rets have stronger D cds than you give them credit for; you mentioned wizards but 40% DR on a 1 min cd against magic is pretty strong (compare that to warriors), as well as dev aura for silence immunity for the healer as well as 20% more DR, and OBV bubble which is much stronger against priests in 5.3. With exoricism on glyph of templars verdict rets have a pretty decent uptime for 10% passive DR, and have very high mobility to LOS and instantly remove any nova's to prevent mage shatters.

[isadorr]

my favorite comp is dk/ret/disc(me).its a healer killer comp.

start on dps, get the healer into a blinding light/asphix combo/gnaw. hopefully he trinkets one. then switch to the healer when he had no trinket and when asphix/foj is back up. even if its on dr, should die in a foj/asphix combo.

Once ret blows their cds, they are pretty much worthless lol.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 04:48 AM ----------

1. it is stronger than it was in 5.0 after they gutted pvppower for hybrids. but its not as strong as it was in cata, and its not where nearly strong enough to justify ret having such bad defensives.
2. their team mate protection is nice, unfortunately, a ret's team mates never get targeted. never ever. the ret is always the kill target. the problem is that ret can't benefit from the vast majority of it's utility. its magic dispel can't be used on itself, its healing is vastly reduced on itself, it can't BoP itself without locking itself out of bubble which is its only real tool to reduce pressure.
3. freedom is nice. but see above, you will almost always be using it on yourself
4. i'll give you dk's purging, though i've actually seen very few using it. but tremor is why shamans are so overvalued right now. tremor and grounding allow an enhance shaman to reduce incoming control a lot more then a ret is capable of.
5. enhance's sustained pressure is better than ret's and they have more utility. neither spec is strong, but enhance IS stronger than ret.
6. it is. but rets are also the easiest melee to control, by far, they are the only melee that dosn't have a short cd limited cc break.
7. bubble is a life saver once. they will swap to someone else for 8 seconds, then back to the paladin. less if it gets dispelled. bubble is by far the worst defensive cooldown in the game because its resulted in ret's defensive capacities being entirely balanced entirely around a dispellable 5 minute cooldown.
8. they can. ret/dk/priest has been very strong comp since wolk based around how much instant cc it has, but its not strong right now due to how fragile the ret is.

Exaclt, once you see a Ret bubble, he is the kill target right after, and dies.

[kosechi]

I could be wrong, but I think you are looking at ret through the stereotypes and now how they are. Ret is not always the kill target, its a valid one but letting a dk free roam in unholy pres shouldnt go unpunished. Rets have stronger D cds than you give them credit for; you mentioned wizards but 40% DR on a 1 min cd against magic is pretty strong (compare that to warriors), as well as dev aura for silence immunity for the healer as well as 20% more DR, and OBV bubble which is much stronger against priests in 5.3. With exoricism on glyph of templars verdict rets have a pretty decent uptime for 10% passive DR, and have very high mobility to LOS and instantly remove any nova's to prevent mage shatters.

no, they don't have stronger defenses then i give them credit for. i am very aware of how limited ret's defensives are. they literally have ZERO cds for physical damage. zero, nada, zip, zilch. paladins are the ONLY class in the game that does not have a flat DR cd. tv glyph also isn't as high uptime as you think it is, the duration is very awkward when you actually get down to ret's ability usage.
playing against any of the combo melee/caster teams like shadowcleave/rmp/ libertycleave/rdspriest/wld you have to make a flat out judgment call as to who is going to be most dangerous to you. and you WILL call it wrong sometimes because you can't always tell which RMP you will play on the battle group.
ret's can have their entire survivability tier dispelled, and they will be CSed very easily to put them in to lethal shatters.

warriors literally have FOUR separate defensive cooldowns, they have flat out passive 15% all the time, they have multiple ways to escape and reduce pressure on themselves such as disarms reflects and 2 separate (arguably three) gap openers. defensively they are far far superior to rets.

[warlockiii]

do you mean

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1022
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=1044
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=6940

?

A little history lesson. Yes. Going back to vanilla, these spells used to be Blessings. Blizzard introduced "Hand" versions to distinguish the defensive/utility abilities from the buffs (blessings of might, kings, and wisdom--wisdom is now gone). The hand mechanic allowed the teammates to keep theirs blessing buffs when a hand was applied. Before the change, the teammate would lose their buff blessing when the defensive blessing was put on them (because you could only have one blessing on you per pally). Now, please continue the discussion...

[Nyaldee]

no, they don't have stronger defenses then i give them credit for. i am very aware of how limited ret's defensives are. they literally have ZERO cds for physical damage. zero, nada, zip, zilch. paladins are the ONLY class in the game that does not have a flat DR cd. tv glyph also isn't as high uptime as you think it is, the duration is very awkward when you actually get down to ret's ability usage.
ret's can have their entire survivability tier dispelled, and they will be CSed very easily to put them in to lethal shatters.

Every smart ret will pick Divine protection glyph for 20% phys dmg reduction when going against melee cleave, TV uptime is not 100% but still high becouse and you're talking about CSing ret like his healer and DK partner aren't there to dispell or lockdown casts. Also there're a few hunt/ret/heal teams now on high raitings, i don't see a reason why class won't be better when current FOTMs are getting nerfs across the board.

Also you're talking like ench shamans are fine defensive wise when thugs blow them up through all their defensive cds. Shamans will benefit from 10% dmg reduction on lightning shield and pvp power reduction, but ret will benefit through healing coefficient increasing and dmg reduction across the board.

[kosechi]

Every smart ret will pick Divine protection glyph for 20% phys dmg reduction when going against melee cleave, TV uptime is not 100% but still high becouse and you're talking about CSing ret like his healer and DK partner aren't there to dispell or lockdown casts. Also there're a few hunt/ret/heal teams now on high raitings, i don't see a reason why class won't be better when current FOTMs are getting nerfs across the board.

Also you're talking like ench shamans are fine defensive wise when thugs blow them up through all their defensive cds. Shamans will benefit from 10% dmg reduction on lightning shield and pvp power reduction, but ret will benefit through healing coefficient increasing and dmg reduction across the board.

ret shouldn't have to burn glyph slots just to get a physical damage cooldown, no one else does. so you end up with a melee, with no physical damage reduction. do you understand how idiotic that is? its even a problem on a lot of pve fights because ret also has to glyph for their cleaves. AM is flat out useless against any cleave team. you will eventually make a bad call and glyph it against the wrong rmp, no other melee has this kind of problem. and its idiotic and bad design.

i can't find these ret/hunter/healer teams at high ratings you are talking about. 90% of the ret teams are actually holy paladins playing thugcleave and kfc who logged out in ret gear.

everyone gets blown up by thugcleave, thats because its thugcleave. neither ret nor enhance is strong, but enhance's defensive is easily one of the most powerful defensive cooldowns in the game. and like a warrior, and unlike a ret, that can prevent and break cc on themselves

ret's entire ( i mean ENTIRE) defensive toolkit can be neutered by dispels or silences. they have no self peels and they have no escape mechanisms. ret's only real defensive tool against melee is it's ability to kite.

being able to stop a shatter in theory, and being able to stop it in practice are completely different things. maybe my shaman is coiled and my dk's pet is rooted far away. maybe hes silenced, maybe his dispel is on cooldown. a mage can shatter a lot more often then you can stop it, thats just the way it is.

[Nyaldee]

ret shouldn't have to burn glyph slots just to get a physical damage cooldown, no one else does. so you end up with a melee, with no physical damage reduction. do you understand how idiotic that is? its even a problem on a lot of pve fights because ret also has to glyph for their cleaves. AM is flat out useless against any cleave team. you will eventually make a bad call and glyph it against the wrong rmp, no other melee has this kind of problem. and its idiotic and bad design.

i can't find these ret/hunter/healer teams at high ratings you are talking about. 90% of the ret teams are actually holy paladins playing thugcleave and kfc who logged out in ret gear.



being able to stop a shatter in theory, and being able to stop it in practice are completely different things. maybe my shaman is coiled and my dk's pet is rooted far away. maybe hes silenced, maybe his dispel is on cooldown. a mage can shatter a lot more often then you can stop it, thats just the way it is.

Don't see what's the problem in switching a glyph before arena gates open...

If you check crosslader com you'll find couple ret/hunt/priest contesting R1 on their BG, few in top 10 and lots at glad raiting.

Your point about shatter is based on too many "if" and "maybe", everyone looses sometimes and what you described can happen to any class. Besides as i pointed numerous times already this patch will shift balance a lot and imo rets will be in a better place, they won't become FOTM but good once will have a better time then they do now.

P.S. I don't argue that getting some extra defence cd will benefit ret, but with their support capability extra toughtness can push them over the top easilly.

[Valedus]

Every smart ret will pick Divine protection glyph for 20% phys dmg reduction when going against melee cleave, TV uptime is not 100% but still high becouse and you're talking about CSing ret like his healer and DK partner aren't there to dispell or lockdown casts. Also there're a few hunt/ret/heal teams now on high raitings, i don't see a reason why class won't be better when current FOTMs are getting nerfs across the board.

Also you're talking like ench shamans are fine defensive wise when thugs blow them up through all their defensive cds. Shamans will benefit from 10% dmg reduction on lightning shield and pvp power reduction, but ret will benefit through healing coefficient increasing and dmg reduction across the board.

Thugs blow Ret up through their defensives even more. Anything that can break bubble will kill you through your defensives. If they can't, then they just wait 8 seconds and go again.

[kosechi]

Don't see what's the problem in switching a glyph before arena gates open...

If you check crosslader com you'll find couple ret/hunt/priest contesting R1 on their BG, few in top 10 and lots at glad raiting.

Your point about shatter is based on too many "if" and "maybe", everyone looses sometimes and what you described can happen to any class. Besides as i pointed numerous times already this patch will shift balance a lot and imo rets will be in a better place, they won't become FOTM but good once will have a better time then they do now.

P.S. I don't argue that getting some extra defence cd will benefit ret, but with their support capability extra toughtness can push them over the top easilly.

its not a matter of swapping glyphs before the gates open. its matter of knowing in which RMPs the rogue will be more dangerous than the mage and vice versa. for example there's three different RMPs in my ratings range and i will end up playing differently against each one because the players are different and have different preferences and strengths.the same can be said for rogue/spriest/druid, WLS, RLS or any comp that has both a physical and a magical component.

when you have an actual damage reduction cooldown for physical damage that decision is a non issue.

whats more, no dps spec should have to make a decision between a physical damage reduction cooldown and their cleave glyphs like rets have to do in pve, rets are the only one who have to make this decision, its idiotic and bad design.

all rets are getting is a damage buff, rets don't NEED a damage buff, their damage is absolutely fine, as multiple people have pointed out, they have some of the best burst in the game. the problem with ret is it's survivability, and they are getting no fixes to that at all despite many many many people trying to illustrate how atrociously fragile rets are and how badly balanced their utility is

until ret's survivability is improved, and they can benefit from their own utility they are always going to be the weak link in any comp.