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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by tyggyr View Post
    [quoting Taran Zhu]

    ... really?

    Would these be the same Shado-Pan who've done next to nothing this entire expansion except grudgingly accept our help because they're obviously completely outmatched by these Sha remnants that we wreck without breaking a sweat?

    I'm tempted to say "bring it".

    I've yet to find this alleged beauty of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms; even my somewhat empty homeland of Mulgore seems more beautiful to me, let alone the majestic beauty of Howling Fjord - we may yet improve the Vale if we dig up something shiny.
    Im not a Horde player but I thought the same thing. Last I saw, the Shado-pan were losing all over the place, and needed the Alliance/Horde help to do anything. The Shado-pan would get their ass handed to them if they fought against either the Horde or Alliance.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Its not that it makes zero sense it just hurts from, oh hell idk i guess a Horde/national pride sense
    Even more so for me ...because...well thats obvious
    WELL, if you think that i like it, indeed be sure that i don't. But trying to be objective, seriously, we destroyed all the part of the Vale facing the Mogu'shan Palace. I don't honestly have the guts for say that they are ungrateful imbeciles.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-22 at 12:30 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    ..And yet, despite all this, despite us (in this case horde), showing the shado-pan that we are prepared to rectify any mistakes we've made, and even stick our necks out of the line to help them, after all this, all it takes is the goblins digging up the vale, and suddenly, nothing we say accounts for anything anymore, we're suddenly the outsiders again and told to leave.

    you know what F*** you taran zhu.
    Well the Shado-pan are quite meaningless from a lore PoV, imo.. it's indeed quite absurd that they'd give the Horde no credit for helping to free their fricking leader from Sha corruption, then take down the Thunder King who, well, would've only conquered Pandaria eventually and wiped out the Shado-Pan in the progress.. nope, that's not worth a fart for thanks.

    Honestly I blame this on inconsistent story-telling more than anything.. I really hope they wrap up Garrosh in a body bag quick so we can get over this embarassing black&white lore situation fast.
    Last edited by Calamari; 2013-05-22 at 12:21 AM.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    ...that isn't a resolution. It's a cheap cop out. The blood elves aren't exactly huge in number nor have they ever been given a resolution to the whole being betrayed by the Kirin Tor thing. Not once, mind you, but twice. Dalaran and Quel'thalas were meant to have a decent relationship for at least two thousand years, though instead of being held accountable for stabbing their closest allies in the back on two occasions...the Kirin Tor is left to walk free and unscathed, nestled safely within the Alliance.
    And what you see as a better resolution than?
    Have both sides jump at eachother's throaths, turning everything into a bloodbath, until only both leaders are left standing?
    Is that a ****** better resolution?!

    Also Trassk.
    If somebody destroys something of great meaning to a nation, no matter how much you'd helped them in the past; you don't expect a retailation in return? Especially from a faction that's been presented as an agressor, despite most people showing otherwise?
    Horde got lucky they weren't put on kill list and just banished instead, because they helped them.
    I think you of all people should know better who's to blame for the the whole thing that's happening
    Who was the one who ordered the Goblins to defile a place most sacred to Pandaren society?
    Who's the one who pulled out the "pandora's box" from the Vale?

    You of all people should know who to outlet your frustration on.
    Last edited by mmoc6e272995a4; 2013-05-22 at 12:30 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    ...that isn't a resolution. It's a cheap cop out. The blood elves aren't exactly huge in number nor have they ever been given a resolution to the whole being betrayed by the Kirin Tor thing. Not once, mind you, but twice. Dalaran and Quel'thalas were meant to have a decent relationship for at least two thousand years, though instead of being held accountable for stabbing their closest allies in the back on two occasions...the Kirin Tor is left to walk free and unscathed, nestled safely within the Alliance.
    The Kirin Tor didnt stab the blood elves in the back, the Silver Covenant did. Which is debatable with all the who was at fault talk but Im not bringing that up. As for the first time, Garithos gave the order and they had to obey. He was the leader of the Lordaeron Alliance at the time. Those blood elves eventually proved that they couldnt be trusted anyway, by joining the Legion and trying to summon Kil'jaeden.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    . Those blood elves eventually proved that they couldnt be trusted anyway, by joining the Legion and trying to summon Kil'jaeden.
    who knows man. Events lead into other events.
    It could very well have been that the expulsion from the Alliance may have made it more likely that the Blood Elves would have been driven into the arms of Illiadin
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  7. #47
    I'm all for killing the shado pan, they greatly over-estimate their militant stregnth.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari View Post
    Well the Shado-pan are quite meaningless from a lore PoV, imo.. it's indeed quite absurd that they'd give the Horde no credit for helping to free their fricking leader from Sha corruption, then take down the Thunder King who, well, would've only conquered Pandaria eventually and wiped out the Shado-Pan in the progress.. nope, that's not worth a fart for thanks.

    Honestly I blame this on inconsistent story-telling more than anything.. I really hope they wrap up Garrosh in a body bag quick so we can get over this embarassing black&white lore situation fast.
    Another one that blames "bad writing" because doesn't understand or doesn't read things in their whole. Sounds like the mantra of average MMO poster.

    It is not wrote in anyhow that they don't give credit to the Horde, is BECAUSE they give credit to us that they don't kick hard our asses from the Vale despite having half-destroyed it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 12:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Warrior View Post
    I'm all for killing the shado pan, they greatly over-estimate their militant stregnth.
    They are not weak, they are just few, so they don't have any worth in large-scale conflicts.
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2013-05-22 at 12:47 AM.

  9. #49
    when was the last time that made the alliance become questionable? how about jainas father admiral proudmoore just going out and attacking the horde because he thought they were going to attack them, when in fact they weren't even thinking of it, and were staying on their own boundaries of durotar.

  10. #50
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    Just another example of the weak story-telling that crops up too often in the game. Blizzard have a great team of very talented developers, but sadly they regularly come up short in this department.

    It's most commonly seen in the quest givers that ask you to "redeem their honour" by going out and killing ten of the enemies that defeated them earlier. There are many variants of this sort of quest on the road from 1-90. How the hell will that make them honourable again? Do the writers even understand what honour is?

    And throughout MoP, we have many encounters with the supposedly elite, wise, and honourable Order of the Shado-Pan. The ancient guardians of Pandaria, highly trained, devoted to their duty, living like humble old monks in their isolated mountain fortress .. and behaving like petulant and incompetent adolescents in most of their main story arcs.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ineluki View Post
    Typical Panderan BS, they preach controlled emotions and peace as well, but are constantly getting corrupted by sha and make zero attempt at peace with the yaungol.
    You do realize that the Sha haven't manifested like this in over 10,000 years, right? (When Shaohao defeated 6 of 'em)
    So you're saying the Pandaren that weren't even alive back then, should be perfectly and flawlessly be able to control everything the Sha could throw at 'em.
    And what did the Horde or the Alliance do with the Yaungol? Did they make an attempt at peace? Didn't think so.

    As for the Shado-Pan being ''weak'', you have to consider that they're not a large force, yet they had to defend against attacks from the Yaungol (in Kun-Lai and from the Townlong Steppes), a Sha-initiated Mantid Swarm that happened years before it should've been (in both the Valley and the Vale) and then the Horde and the Alliance decided to come in and bring in their war, which also caused the Sha to manifest more greatly than ever.

    And while the Alliance/Horde scouting group did help against the Yaungol in Kun-Lai (by freeing an outpost, training Pandaren and providing them with weapons and armor) the factions themselves haven't really done much. They were too busy fighting each other in the Krasarang Wilds.

    Most of the actual help from the Alliance and Horde were indeed at the Isle of Thunder, and I'm sure the Shado-Pan were thankful for the help against the Thunder King. But does this mean they should just shrug off the fact that Garrosh's Horde built a huge digsite in one of their most sacred locations on Pandaria?

    As for Taran Zhu, I can't imagine Shan Bu being a pushover. Considering he was one of the most trusted warlords of Lei Shen, not to forget that he nearly managed to defeat a celestial (Niuzao at his temple) and would've drained its power if it wasn't for the players and the Shado-Pan stopping him. (although we only fought his pet cloud serpent and some Shan'ze mogu.)
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jshadow View Post
    Horde got lucky they weren't put on kill list and just banished instead, because they helped them.
    Well, not excatly. We are not "lucky", we gave our asses for their cause, and since without the help of Horde and Alliance the state of the Vale now would be the least of the problems, they owe a debt to us, and giving us time to put things in their right place without kicking us like plagued people is a reasonable way for repay that debt.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 12:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Triptych View Post
    Just another example of the weak story-telling that crops up too often in the game.
    Yes sir. *trollface*

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    They are not weak, they are just few, so they doesn't have any worth in large-scale conflicts.
    Id say they do, every hundred or thousand years they have to face down the entire mantid swarm
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Id say they do, every hundred or thousand years they have to face down the entire mantid swarm
    They do so from behind a wall....

  15. #55
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    He's awfully confident for a guy who's needed us to solve every single problem he's had for him since landing in Pandaria.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyggyr View Post
    [quoting Taran Zhu]

    ... really?

    Would these be the same Shado-Pan who've done next to nothing this entire expansion except grudgingly accept our help because they're obviously completely outmatched by these Sha remnants that we wreck without breaking a sweat?

    I'm tempted to say "bring it".

    I've yet to find this alleged beauty of the Vale of Eternal Blossoms; even my somewhat empty homeland of Mulgore seems more beautiful to me, let alone the majestic beauty of Howling Fjord - we may yet improve the Vale if we dig up something shiny.
    Without breaking a sweat, huh? Come back when you can be realistic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 09:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrox View Post
    Im not a Horde player but I thought the same thing. Last I saw, the Shado-pan were losing all over the place, and needed the Alliance/Horde help to do anything. The Shado-pan would get their ass handed to them if they fought against either the Horde or Alliance.
    You honestly have no idea because of the conflict that came to Pandaria. Do you even read the story? They were spread across multiple fronts because of what we awakened. These people rose up against the Mogu we fight in a raid unarmed. Defend the wall every so often from massive numbers. You over estimate your power. You didn't defeat the Lich King or Illidan. You do realize you are a pathetic hero and it is neutrals all the time doing the real work.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    Do you have any constructive to add to the discussion or are you simply acting childish due to an absence of anything of note to post? For the record, I'm no 'fanboi' of the Horde. In fact, I loathe both factions equally and find the whole 'faction pride' and faction model as a whole detrimental to the storytelling of individual races which matter to me more in the long run.
    This entire thread has had very little ''of note'' in it. I think the mod on page one basically countered the ''Shado-Pan Alliance Bias'' pretty soundly. Beyond that it's just be people yelling ''hear hear!'' behind other whiners. Let's not get sanctimonious when you yourself admit to not caring either way.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Also, what makes me laugh is how, we' just had an entire patch about horde and alliance forces helping the shado-pan take down the pandaren's ancient enemy, the thunder king, which lets face it those ninja panda's could not have done it alone... only for them to instantly turn on the horde because of what the goblins under Garrosh's orders have done, and they don't even listen to reason from Dezco (who if you read the dezco short story, your know the tragic events of that) after all he's been though.
    Oh, I don't know. Perhaps it was because workers from your faction defiled the one sacred place in Pandaria that the Golden Lotus and Shado-Pan protect at all costs. The same place that had barred outsiders for Centuries or Millenia (I can't remember which was mentioned off-hand). Their anger is justified. Just because YOU don't like Garrosh or his methods, doesn't mean that it isn't any less your issue until you actually rebel since you're still a part of the Horde led by Warchief Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darmalus View Post
    The difference is that when the Horde does something bad, it gets paraded around forever. If the Alliance does anything bad, it gets swept under the rug and forgotten about.
    Edit: From a story telling perspective. The players obviously remember almost everything.
    Admiral Rogers is pissed because of Theramore, fair enough. Theramore was a military target, doesn't justify nuking townsfolk but hey. Jaina? Betrayed by a representative of the Sunreavers, they won't go peacefully so fighting ensues. Hell, if you go back to the Wrathgate it's just the same. Not every Forsaken joined Putress, but the Undead were scrutinised regardless.

    The reason why when the Alliance does something, and they don't get the same level of attention, is because it is usually provoked. The only one I can think that wasn't an act of retaliation of was Camp Taurajo, but when you play the Alliance side of that you see that the Commander defied his orders and tried to let as many people flee as possible. Horde side? HE DID IT KILL THEM ALL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    He's awfully confident for a guy who's needed us to solve every single problem he's had for him since landing in Pandaria.
    Why wouldn't he be? He's just had the Horde and the Alliance fight a war against the Mogu while the majority of the remaining Shado-Pan defended their camp. If anything, their losses would've been fairly minimal compared to the Sunreavers and Kirin Tor.

    Add that to any attempt to resist would lead to them calling in the remnants of the Golden Lotus as well as issuing the call to any other Allies, including the Alliance no doubt, to push the Horde out of the Vale.
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2013-05-22 at 01:41 AM.

  19. #59
    The Horde has caused nothing but trouble on Pandaria. Sure, the Alliance isn't entirely innocent, but the Horde has done worse.

    They've stormed the temple of the Red Crane, a NEUTRAL and holy site to the Pandaren. They have participated in the release of the Sha across Pandaria. They have utilized demons to terrorize and intimidate Pandaren villagers, and now they're digging and ripping into the Pandaren's most sacred and holy site (the Vale).

    Taran Zhu is entirely in his right to banish the Horde from Pandaria. And him and his ShadoPan would ultimately succeed in purging the Shrine. The Shadopan are Ninja's. They are the most elite force of Pandaren that stand on the continent of Pandaria. Their skills and training is far more advanced than that of the citizens and shop keepers inside the Shrine. Sure, there's a few guards and warriors, but before they could even move, the Shadopan would've already brought their blades across the guards neck.

    Their 'struggle' to fight the Mantid, Mogu and Sha doesn't show their weakness, considering the Shado-Pan are in such small numbers compared to the LEGIONS of Mogu, Mantid and Sha. They've only accepted the help of us 'players' because we're suppose to be a 'story-forced person of good' who is seemingly liked by all and serves both neutral parties and his own faction equally.

    The Horde, not including the Player, has done NOTHING for the Shadopan.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    Also, what makes me laugh is how, we' just had an entire patch about horde and alliance forces helping the shado-pan take down the pandaren's ancient enemy, the thunder king, which lets face it those ninja panda's could not have done it alone... only for them to instantly turn on the horde because of what the goblins under Garrosh's orders have done, and they don't even listen to reason from Dezco (who if you read the dezco short story, your know the tragic events of that) after all he's been though.

    Seriously, I didn't know what to think about the shado-pan for most of it, but if this is the last we see of them in the games story, good bloody riddance .
    The emperor never got rid of his pride and the Shado-pan are infected with it, along with most of the denizens of Pandaria, it makes sense they would be so quick to cry for vengeance against an ally if the Sha of Pride were in control.

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