How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[pallyopness]

if its trivial then why do it? because it wouldnt matter than right? and wouldnt fix anything? and there are plenty of guilds that will work with players. I run 2 raid groups a week personally. one is our heroic progression group and 1 is for those needing assistance. It depends on the guild and im sure there are many more like mine. however, the problem is, that i personally experience is that lower end players refuse to take advice and work to get better as a whole (yes a generalization). just the other day i was talking to a healer about upping his healing a bit for throne, suggested addons for healing that will make him more efficient. his response "i've never needed an addon to heal im fine without it." he also went on to complain to others on how infuriating it was that i asked him to change how he heals for the sake of raiding. i mean wtf....seriously

[Shahad]

if its trivial then why do it? because it wouldnt matter than right? and wouldnt fix anything? and there are plenty of guilds that will work with players. I run 2 raid groups a week personally. one is our heroic progression group and 1 is for those needing assistance. It depends on the guild and im sure there are many more like mine. however, the problem is, that i personally experience is that lower end players refuse to take advice and work to get better as a whole (yes a generalization). just the other day i was talking to a healer about upping his healing a bit for throne, suggested addons for healing that will make him more efficient. his response "i've never needed an addon to heal im fine without it." he also went on to complain to others on how infuriating it was that i asked him to change how he heals for the sake of raiding. i mean wtf....seriously

What's trivial is the amount of time it takes to implement. The actual efect it would have is non-trivial. Don't misread what I say.
While your (quite limited) experience with bad players says one thing, my (also limited) experience says another. The players on my realm can't progress past a certain point because they'll take anyone who shows up. They are receptive to feedback when it's presented in a non-condescending way. What's killing them is situational awareness, reaction times and other such things. Having an Entry mode(same as normal, but bosses with 10% less health) would help them practice on that.

Look back at the first few weeks of Tot and ever since they have nerfed. So nerfing content down to bad players is going to produce harder content players to recruit from? Right. There are people who do LFR that take it upon themselves to get better and learn their class/spec, rotation and so on. Those are the players we recruit because they dont want nerfed content or their hand held by someone teaching them things they should already know at 90.

Wasn't that simply rebalancing to make 10-man and 25-man closer in difficulty? I thought I read a tweet saying they made 10-man harder than intended or something.

Also, nothing in the game currently teaches anything about raiding. Rotations/stats/mechanics are irrelevant before Normal modes and there's no boss mechanic to practice on either. So simply reaching level 90 won't make anyone into a decent raider. And LFR does little in teaching anything as well due to how stupidly easy it is to ignore everything that is going on around you and still live.

But, making a version of the normal raid with a 10% nerf available would provide a place to practice situational awareness and rotations in a real raiding evnrinment. The only difference being that there will be less wipes. Once a new players has had his time to practice in this mode, they can move on up if they wish. It's not nerfing content to the level of bad players, it's creating a Normal mode with a slightly higher success rate and calling it Entry mode.

[pallyopness]

and another thing shahad....why should players be able to clear content at the same pace as others if they arent as good and dont have the same time commitment. that seems pretty messed up to me. you put in more time to clear stuff faster than other people. thats the point! i guess they should hand our first place to all racers in nascar too regardless of how good of a driver they are lol. he is only capable of driving at 60 mph but he deserves to be enshrined with those capable of going 200....give me a break

[Shahad]

and another thing shahad....why should players be able to clear content at the same pace as others if they arent as good and dont have the same time commitment. that seems pretty messed up to me. you put in more time to clear stuff faster than other people. thats the point! i guess they should hand our first place to all racers in nascar too regardless of how good of a driver they are lol. he is only capable of driving at 60 mph but he deserves to be enshrined with those capable of going 200....give me a break

Nascars are a bit of a bad analogy here.

I'm not saying they should be clearing Normal or Heroics, I'm saying they should have their own difficulty to clear. But for fuck's sake, they should have SOMETHING to clear.

[pallyopness]

my limited experience with bad players? you have got to be kidding me LMFAO. you have no idea what i have done in this game. i have worked with more players on the lower spectrum of skill than i care to even explain. ive been doing this same format since TBC. NONSTOP!! in icc i ran 2 25 man raids and 2 10 man raids in 1 week based on that SAME format. dont even try to pretend you know my experience in training people. it's trivial for the amount of time it takes for people to look shit up to get better. they wont do that but yet expect blizzard to take the time to rearrange content for them? how fair is that in all honesty. ya they pay for the game....so do I....so thus i play the game i pay for how it is intended to be played and never complain...EVER. I do this because i highly enjoy the game. if people dont enjoy what they are doing then quit. if all 8.3 million subscribers quit due to difficulty then oh well id rather not play then have easy as shit content.

i started doing 5 mans in tbc...then ventured into raiding and got laughed at numerous times. i learned how to get better and made it happen so that i could do the part of the game that appealed to me.

[Oneleg]

ditto, LFR lets you see the content get some gear that will let you actually raid without the LFG heroic dungeons gear. What is this "gap" that your talking about?

[isadorr]

ditto, LFR lets you see the content get some gear that will let you actually raid without the LFG heroic dungeons gear. What is this "gap" that your talking about?

I think this "gap" would be found between bad players ears.

[Oneleg]

Not sure what this "gap" is . . .
I don't see a "gap"
LFR has done what it was intended, casuals to see how a raid dungeon is
If they are willing to spend time to study a boss fight and go through hours of wipes, they can step up to Heroics
I left out normal, I don't think it should be there, it's a waste of time

Problem is when a casual gets into a LFR and isn't pulling XXXXXXX DPS some of the leet players call them out and try to vote kick as fast as they can click their little mouse button. People need to freaking relax and remember exactly what LFR is, and not try to use it as a filler for their normal raid nights.

[isadorr]

Problem is when a casual gets into a LFR and isn't pulling XXXXXXX DPS some of the leet players call them out and try to vote kick as fast as they can click their little mouse button. People need to freaking relax and remember exactly what LFR is, and not try to use it as a filler for their normal raid nights.

Someone auto attacking or dying in the first few seconds of a fight on purpose should get kicked. Most of the kicks i see in LFR are people who are doing next to nothing but afking.

[pallyopness]

lfr last night for example.....2 players sitting outside the area for lei she in terrace.....i call them out during the encounter...their response "why dont you pay attention to the fight" lol...needless to say they never saw sha...

[isadorr]

lfr last night for example.....2 players sitting outside the area for lei she in terrace.....i call them out during the encounter...their response "why dont you pay attention to the fight" lol...needless to say they never saw sha...

It is as if being and lazy and bad is a badge of coolness for them.

[Shahad]

my limited experience with bad players? you have got to be kidding me LMFAO. you have no idea what i have done in this game. i have worked with more players on the lower spectrum of skill than i care to even explain. ive been doing this same format since TBC. NONSTOP!! in icc i ran 2 25 man raids and 2 10 man raids in 1 week based on that SAME format. dont even try to pretend you know my experience in training people. it's trivial for the amount of time it takes for people to look shit up to get better. they wont do that but yet expect blizzard to take the time to rearrange content for them? how fair is that in all honesty. ya they pay for the game....so do I....so thus i play the game i pay for how it is intended to be played and never complain...EVER. I do this because i highly enjoy the game. if people dont enjoy what they are doing then quit. if all 8.3 million subscribers quit due to difficulty then oh well id rather not play then have easy as shit content.

i started doing 5 mans in tbc...then ventured into raiding and got laughed at numerous times. i learned how to get better and made it happen so that i could do the part of the game that appealed to me.

Point is, you do not know every player in World of warcraft. I don't either. So neither of use can claim that bad players are X and do Y. As such, you can't make generalisations like that. So what I am doing is keeping an open mind. Right now, there is simply no good way of teaching new players raiding basics. Easier content for them to progress on(so, not LFR) is a good solution to that, in my opinion. I at least can't see how it could hurt the game or affect you in a negative way.

[isadorr]

Point is, you do not know every player in World of warcraft. I don't either. So neither of use can claim that bad players are X and do Y. As such, you can't make generalisations like that. So what I am doing is keeping an open mind. Right now, there is simply no good way of teaching new players raiding basics. Easier content for them to progress on(so, not LFR) is a good solution to that, in my opinion. I at least can't see how it could hurt the game or affect you in a negative way.

Because they do not get any better at the game. They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?

These threads exist because of nerfs. Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.

[Talzar]

Bob doesn't want to dedicate any more time to the game than he is. What he wants is chilling out on vent with internet buddies and kill internet dragons. Now, killing internet dragons requires him to spend more time on the game or suffer through LFR and still be unsatisfied. That doesn't mean that Bob is a bad person, he just treats the game less seriously than Normal and Heroic raiders. Generalising that the bad players are assholes brings little to the discussion and is simply not true. I know plenty of truly nice people who are just not very good. Some even do try to optimize their throughput but they aren't situationally aware enough to not die on mechanics and such. I'd like for them to have an Easy mode/LFR+/LFR Heroic/whatever the name you want to call it, so they can progress through the content at the same time as everyone else, but with lesser loot.

The game isn't titled World of Bobcraft. I'm not going to have a debate over a magical yet horrible player with a heart of gold.

I have nerve damage in both my hands. I can't move my fingers at all. All I can move are my wrists. My DPS is average for heroics and I can do every mechanic which doesn't require simultaneous keyboard and mouse control which is rare on encounters. I can only do one or the other at a time. You know, I can't even think a specific one I couldn't do as I sit here. One had something to do with freeing people but I can't remember what it was. If a guy who plays with only two index fingers overlapping his thumbs and who uses both hands to manipulate the mouse does things like Heroic Rag when it was current content then Bob can get his act together and do normal mode.

[Elapsed]

A) Go back to the Wrath of the Lich King raid difficulty model, 10man is easier and drops inferior loot to 25m. They may or may not be seperate lockouts.

If they do this, and I'm not saying I support it, They'd better give us separate lockouts again. I raid both 10m (12/12n) and 25m (5/12n) and if I HAVE to raid 25 man to get my BIS gear, I'd better be able to raid with my main in both raids

[Deleted]

Because they do not get any better at the game.

Correct.

They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?

Wrong. The content gets nerfed because they will never get any better.

These threads exist because of nerfs.

The GAME exists because of nerfs.

Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.

Grats. How why don't you just see the problem as the tuning up of the raids rather than the nerfs? if people are happy with 30%, wtf is blizzard doing not giving it to them?

[pallyopness]

for the record and no i am not joking in the slightest. i had a raider that had no hands. once again i am at joking AT ALL. she raided with us through all of cata and did heroic ds pre-nerf. and was an enh shammy. she was born that way as well it wasnt from an accident. where there is a will to get better there is a way. so i am with talzar completely on this one.

[isadorr]

Correct.


Wrong. The content gets nerfed because they will never get any better.



The GAME exists because of nerfs.


Grats. How why don't you just see the problem as the tuning up of the raids rather than the nerfs? if people are happy with 30%, wtf is blizzard doing not giving it to them?

Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.

[Deleted]

Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.

They are going to be bad anyway. So what's the point of getting all Po Faced and sitting there with a corn cob up your bum denying them some fun?

[isadorr]

They are going to be bad anyway. So what's the point of getting all Po Faced and sitting there with a corn cob up your bum denying them some fun?

They can raid old content like people who work low paying jobs. You dont want to get better and be lazy, then go to the bottom of the ladder. Rewarding idiots for being a idiot isnt progression but giving them the illusion. Sounds like a welfare candidate.